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'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

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Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#451
post #44

As a YC alum who worked with Gary Tan directly, this is… odd. Anyone who knows Gary knows he’s a (relatively) gentle human being. I can’t imagine him hurting a fly. His tweets seem totally out of character compared to the Gary Tan I personally knew. Maybe he has changed? I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not sure what Tan's specific beef is, I could never endorse violent rhetoric in politics, but the level of avoidable human misery caused by the dysfunction of politics in San Francisco is sickening. If you can walk through the Tenderloin without becoming utterly enraged at the people responsible, there's a piece of your soul missing.

Many were enraged with by the soulless tech gentrification of the city. But they couldn't compete so they had to move. Some don't have the means to move. It must be sickening for many to have to deal with the externalities.

Or they can just agree with Gary that correlation is never causation.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech billionaires often seem more interested in surviving the apocalypse than preventing it. - pretty much sums everything we observe today. And it's only getting worse, despite tech advancements. Great article.

I find it interesting that you added "despite tech advancements". I don't see how the level of technological advancement enters into this equation at all.

Maybe the connection dandanua is alluding to is that mythology from the beginning of the "Information Age" (circa 1980) that technology would "bring us all together in a giant conversation of humankind". As if. Now, here we are having this conversation on a platform owned and run by those same "bunker men" who probably bought the laws that destroyed the peered Internet that was our hope. We're still stuck in 1980, holding out that "technology will save us".

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#453
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what Tan's specific beef is, I could never endorse violent rhetoric in politics, but the level of avoidable human misery caused by the dysfunction of politics in San Francisco is sickening. If you can walk through the Tenderloin without becoming utterly enraged at the people responsible, there's a piece of your soul missing.

> I could never endorse violent rhetoric in politics In literally the next sentence: > the level of avoidable human misery caused by the dysfunction of politics [...] sickening [...] utterly enraged [...] there's a piece of your soul missing So you'll deploy extreme emotional hyperbole, but not "violent rhetoric"? Seems like those are two rather nearby points on the same spectrum, no? Tan just slipped a bit off the e…

> Seems like those are two rather nearby points on the same spectrum, no?

I don't think so, no. Those two things are miles apart.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech billionaires often seem more interested in surviving the apocalypse than preventing it. - pretty much sums everything we observe today. And it's only getting worse, despite tech advancements. Great article.

I find it interesting that you added "despite tech advancements". I don't see how the level of technological advancement enters into this equation at all.

tech advancements = improvements of life for the whole humanity, and thus overall happiness. But it seems this naive thinking doesn't work in this world.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#455
post #374

> Tan “should not have done any of that. He should go for a while. He should not represent tech anymore,” I'd argue that anyone who cares this much should "go for a while". For over at least a decade now it's made no sense that we hold people in certain roles to a higher standard than anyone else. These high standards are a form of power transfer that hurts those who believe in them. Can't we just admit we're all hum…

Does he actually "represents tech"? I am really not sure about that.

He doesn't represent "tech". He is one of the major figures who represents SV/SF tech culture, though.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wouldn’t be prosecuted. Wishing death on political figures is a cherished American tradition, and well protected under the first amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threatening_the_president_of_t...

> Wishing death on political figures is a cherished American tradition It's a strange sort of "cherished American tradition" that is so subtle that I, as a native American more than a half-century old, have never even heard of it being a tradition before.

There’s a link in the comment you’re replying citing a 1969 Supreme Court case about this very type of situation.

Yes Americans have cherished a very liberal/free definition of free speech rights.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more the state of modern social media. Post Elon acquisition, many influential tech figures have discovered that being a provocateur on Twitter/X is more consistently successful at building an audience than genuine insight.

This was the case pre Elon too. It's human nature. People are social creatures and they love to join some fight as long as they have their own comrades with them. My wife spent years on Twitter embroiled in a very long running and bitter political / rights issue. She was always thoughtful, insightful etc. She'd spend 10 minutes rewording a single tweet to make sure it got the real point across in a way that wasn't in…

Your wife sounds wise. That's a level of self-awareness and discipline that is not common.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you're not going to be able to charge them a lot of money without claiming LLM and you won't get funding, so gotta think about the big picture.

Don't worry, you can say something vague like "it's powered by LLM" which could reasonably mean that the LLM was used during the training phase of your own classifier.

Or that you asked ChatGPT how to write scikit-learn code.

Re: 'Stupid,' 'shameful:' Tech workers on Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan's rant

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grandparent post is centered around the idea that it wasn't free speech, which is what I was responding to, not the idea that there can't be social consequences. > And a judge won't be very amenable to a possible consequent assault case if the victim was goaded. This is incorrect and fairly disturbing. The idea of "fighting words" (which are not protected speech) is extremely circumscribed; it applies basically o…

Apparently there is plenty of room for debate on this subject, and Brandenburg v Ohio — involving a KKK leader whose conviction under a state law for making threatening and racist remarks was overturned by a divided court — is still being hashed out by constitutional experts to this day. It doesn’t invalidate the central idea that free speech is different from inflammatory speech “condoning” violence (wink wink) when…

> Apparently there is plenty of room for debate on this subject, and Brandenburg v Ohio — involving a KKK leader whose conviction under a state law for making threatening and racist remarks was overturned by a divided court — is still being hashed out by constitutional experts to this day.

There's always room for debate on anything, but nobody but a tiny minority of legal experts are "hashing out" the case. It's been settled, quiet law for decades. It's also important to note that it came out of a much more restless time in American history, and a time when violence was very regularly politically or racially motivated violence driven by speech and the spread of ideas.

> And in any case, we are discussing the use of telecommunications systems for harassment and not someone shouting in a park behind a police barricade. I don’t do either of these things, so I’m admittedly not well-informed about the constitutional and case law in the US that might apply.

Harassment is another thing that has a specific legal definition. It's become common over time to use stronger words than are justified colloquially because it makes a more persuasive argument. For example, we might describe an accidental death as a "murder". But I don't think it's very productive in coming to understandings or deciding how we should set norms and make laws.

> It doesn’t invalidate the central idea that free speech is different from inflammatory speech “condoning” violence (wink wink) when it is amplified by technology to have an asymmetrical effect on the target of that speech.

In what sense is it asymmetrical? It's been my observation that many people making arguments like this seem to believe that 21st century social media technology has changed everything. Rather, historically speaking - at least in the modern era - it's more akin to returning to the norm, rather than the closely gatekept broadcast media era. This sort of thing is obviously gross, but it is not beyond the historical pale. It has seemed to me that many people would prefer to return to the brief period we did have asymmetry, where the wrong people saying ugly things were kept out of what was regarded as the place of public discourse, which discourse could then target people not blessed with access and leave them no way to publicly respond or defend themselves.

But in this case we're talking about a tweet made about a politicians and public figures. (It's worth mentioning that in the US, anything related to political speech is given even more leeway.) Twitter is available to both their proponents and their detractors. Any politician has themselves an enormous platform. Nothing about this case is asymmetrical, unless the argument is that the politician(s) has acquired more vitriolic haters than defenders. Well, that's the nature of social life. I would hope that the police would seriously investigate any actual threats and keep a close eye on the neighborhood they live in.

As for inflammatory - well, yes, inflammatory speech has been held to be protected over and over and over again. I also don't think it's fruitful to go down the road of "this speech is secretly condoning violence" (which is also not illegal or the "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences folks advocating for the enemy du jour to be assaulted in the streets would be in trouble.) Even if it is secretly condoning violence, it's very obvious that criminalizing "coded" speech is a wide open road to serious abuses of rights.

> If I were a C-level executive I would probably aspire to higher level of online citizenry and behavior, perhaps, than a KKK leader, and hire someone else to do the tweeting.

No argument there. I do not know Gary Tan or anything about him other than what was in this reporting but it's obvious the tweet is trashy and unprofessional and the world would be better off without it. Nothing in my posts should be construed as an endorsement or agreement with it or Gary Tan.

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