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We need motivation (good managers)

ethanalter.com

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Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#51

Post by [deleted] »

phantomathkg wrote: post #42
myhf wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think there's more to life than money, then why are you so proud of underpaying your team members?

As a manger myself, I don't think OP is proud of underpaying his team. We fight management for more salary for sure. At the end we are employee ourselves as well. But even at a medium size company, there are multiple layers even at an executive level you won't be able to talk to, for example, the board or VC. What I believe OP trying to say here is that, despite all these, he did the best he can to maintain his relat…

[deleted]

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#52

Post by a_bonobo »

Two things not mentioned that I believe destroyed 'business culture' and employee motivation:

- Covid. Doesn't matter what you believe in how dangerous Covid is or is not, in Covid times companies happily required their employees to work in unsafe conditions (and now they're back at it again with requests to come into the office). A contract was broken in that time; why work for peanuts to risk long covid.

- A professionalisation of management. Ask a boomer, you used to be able to start at the bottom of a company and work your way into leadership levels. As an 'elder millennial' I have never worked in a company where that is possible: the leadership level usually consists of McKinsey, management consultant, finance people. If you don't have the background in those things you'll clearly never end up on that level. So why bother? (what's worse: complete demotivation because the leadership level has no domain expertise so spends its time inventing vague, waffely strategies far removed from the tech the company produces. see that recent linkedin google-employee post complaining about 'glassy-eyed leadership')

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#53

Post by paulcole »

betenoire wrote: post #33
paulcole wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also false. Would you bet your life that you could demotivate me and prevent me from sweeping my apartment floors tomorrow morning? What about demotivating me and keeping me from eating dinner tonight? You can create a situation where I can become demotivated but ultimately I set my own level of motivation.

I mean, I get what you are saying I think... but was is the practical difference between "you can put me in a place where I become demotivated" and "you can't demotivate me"? The whole industry of coaching seemingly contradicts this take. I can become motivated from someone sharing a vision of what is possible that I didn't understand or believe in, and I can become unmotivated from eating dinner from watching a docu…

> you can put me in a place where I become demotivated

You’re leaving out an important word there.

> you can put me in a place where I can become demotivated

It’s not a foregone conclusion that I become demotivated because of your actions. Because your actions don’t guarantee my reaction.

> I can become unmotivated from eating dinner from watching a documentary on the food industry.

Yes, except that the demotivation is your action. Many people can happily eat dinner after watching the same documentary. The movie maker can try to influence your reaction but they don’t dictate it.

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#54

Post by paulcole »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #32
paulcole wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also false. Would you bet your life that you could demotivate me and prevent me from sweeping my apartment floors tomorrow morning? What about demotivating me and keeping me from eating dinner tonight? You can create a situation where I can become demotivated but ultimately I set my own level of motivation.

That's like saying nobody can ever steal from anyone else because I wouldn't be willing to bet my life that I could steal your wallet from you. Just because things aren't 100% reliable, doesn't mean they're not possible.

OK then how much would you be willing to bet that you could demotivate or motivate me?

The difference in the wallet theft vs. motivation idea is that you have 0 control over my motivation. I am in 100% control of my motivation. You may be able to try to increase or decrease my motivation but you can’t control it.

Motivation’s not a thing you can pick up and take like a wallet. It’s not real and it’s mine.

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#55

Post by zeroonetwothree »

JohnFen wrote: post #16
ozim wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think most programmers code for fun in their free time. I do and know quite some who also do code for fun but still…. Story points and sprints are there to save you from people who would otherwise come to you and ask for changes or shift priorities on daily basis. You don’t care about story points but with them you can say “I am busy with this 8 pt story will pick next when I am done” instead of having some p…

> I don’t think most programmers code for fun in their free time. Maybe not, I haven't done a study. But literally every dev that I personally know (well enough to know what they do in their free time) does this. > save you from people who would otherwise come to you and ask for changes or shift priorities on daily basis. The problem is that one of the jobs of a manager is to shield devs from this. A manager who is b…

Literally zero of the devs I know spend a nontrivial amount of time coding for fun outside of work. Maybe a few small things once a year or so but hardly what I’d consider regular. We do often do ‘fun stuff’ at work though so it kind of scratches that itch

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#57

Post by paulcole »

JohnFen wrote: post #30
paulcole wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also false. Would you bet your life that you could demotivate me and prevent me from sweeping my apartment floors tomorrow morning? What about demotivating me and keeping me from eating dinner tonight? You can create a situation where I can become demotivated but ultimately I set my own level of motivation.

Maybe I couldn't demotivate you when it comes to your personal stuff, but I bet I could demotivate you in the workplace. Well, maybe not you -- you might be an exceptional person in this regard -- but the majority of people.

Yes, I generally agree with that. But the fact that you are able to take an action that leads to people being demotivated doesn’t mean that you demotivated those people.

The people demotivated themselves as a result of your actions.

They could’ve just as easily remained motivated — they just chose not to.

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#58

Post by 0x6461188A »

Buttons840 wrote: post #2

Most programmers program for fun in th their free time. If you want to motivate us, then don't do things that demotivate us and you'll find us motivated. What demotivates me are meetings with outcomes I don't care about. I don't care about story points, and meetings focused on story points demotivate me. I'm demotivated by sprints followed by another sprint followed by another sprint; the problem is right there in th…

I think it is valuable to step back and see why meetings exist and then try to fix them if they are not addressing their purpose.

Meeting are valuable because they are solving a coordination problem. Without meetings people would be misaligned.

I want to have fun programming but I also want to make sure I am working on things that are important to the business and to the customers. Meetings help in navigating that vague space.

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#59

Post by xboxnolifes »

brewdad wrote: post #41
JohnFen wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no clue how large or small my professional circle is. Since you claim to have knowledge about what is the norm across the entire field of software engineering rather than just the people in your own bubble, I assume that you have a study that informs your belief?

There are an estimated 28 million software developers in the world. How many millions do you know personally? Your circle is incredibly small.

Everyone's circle is incredibly small by that definition, and those neither opinions hold any weight.

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#60

Post by shermantanktop »

paulcole wrote: post #9

Nobody can make someone else motivated. You can put someone in a situation where they can motivate themselves, but you personally can’t make anyone motivated to do anything. If you disagree, think about this: Would you bet your life that if you offered me $1,000,000 to work at Burger King for a year that I’d be motivated to take the offer? What about paying me $1,000,000,000 to sit on a beach for a year? Or maybe jus…

That’s the problem with homo economicus, the rational choice agent that makes economists swoon but is not so easy to find in reality. People have many reasons why they do what they do and sometimes they don’t understand their own motivations.
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