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We need motivation (good managers)

ethanalter.com

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Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#11

Post by ozim »

Buttons840 wrote: post #2

Most programmers program for fun in th their free time. If you want to motivate us, then don't do things that demotivate us and you'll find us motivated. What demotivates me are meetings with outcomes I don't care about. I don't care about story points, and meetings focused on story points demotivate me. I'm demotivated by sprints followed by another sprint followed by another sprint; the problem is right there in th…

I don’t think most programmers code for fun in their free time. I do and know quite some who also do code for fun but still….

Story points and sprints are there to save you from people who would otherwise come to you and ask for changes or shift priorities on daily basis.

You don’t care about story points but with them you can say “I am busy with this 8 pt story will pick next when I am done” instead of having some pointy haired boss insisting to do something else each day and after a month yelling at you “why nothing is finished”.

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#12

Post by lelandbatey »

We do need motivation from good managers, which can only be effective after the C-suite stops kneecapping the "safety" hierarchy near the bottom.

You can't talk about Maslows Heirarchy and how "[middle managers] are the ones best positioned to both understand the needs of individuals and motivate those individuals based on that understanding" without spending a LOT more time acknowledging that middle managers can't do shit in the face of corporate leadership across the entire industry behaving like erratic parents that are traumatizing the masses. We have witnessed nearly all the companies we all work for go on huge hiring and then firing sprees. It's like giving someone a house and then burning down 1/4 of it to save money. Sure there's less upkeep, but did you folks really think no one might find that a little... traumatic?

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#14

Post by ozim »

Etheryte wrote: post #6
Buttons840 wrote: post #2

Most programmers program for fun in th their free time. If you want to motivate us, then don't do things that demotivate us and you'll find us motivated. What demotivates me are meetings with outcomes I don't care about. I don't care about story points, and meetings focused on story points demotivate me. I'm demotivated by sprints followed by another sprint followed by another sprint; the problem is right there in th…

The problem is that once upon a time, someone wrote a management book that said that setting deadlines can push people to work harder — and to an extent that's true — but if you take that idea to the extreme and every week is an important deadline, eventually the magic runs out and you end up just burning everyone out. Good managers know this of course, and work hard to find some kind of a balance between their team,…

Problem with sprints is some people treat those as deadlines- while end of sprint is just a checkpoint.

What was delivered what was not delivered- then we can ask why something wasn’t delivered. We can ask is what we build still relevant? Maybe we need to cut some.

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#15

Post by 303uru »

pseudoramble wrote: post #5
303uru wrote: post #4

While the essay offers an interesting perspective on motivation and corporate culture, I disagree with some of its conclusions. The emphasis on middle managers as the key to resolving the current motivational crisis in the workplace seems overly simplistic. Middle managers indeed play a crucial role in team dynamics and motivation, but the issues at hand are systemic and require a broader approach than simply relying…

This is a bit tangential, but, have middle managers ever actually had those powers? I mean this in a genuine way. My post college career began in 2011, and all I've known is hopeful managers who aren't empowered to do much of anything like just decide to hire a person, give somebody a raise, or make major changes to company strategy or anything. Is that one of those things that really did exists like offices with clo…

It's a fair question. To be fair, I entered my field post pharmacy school in 2013 and was immediately place in a middle manager position. The "old dogs" spoke a lot about the days of old in which they did have a lot of power and flexibility. I've since moved up in another company into a national VP level position and I hear the same from older VPs, they used to have more power and flexibility. So anecdotally, I think there has been a lot of consolidation and power hoarding in high level executive positions.

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#16

Post by JohnFen »

ozim wrote: post #11
Buttons840 wrote: post #2

Most programmers program for fun in th their free time. If you want to motivate us, then don't do things that demotivate us and you'll find us motivated. What demotivates me are meetings with outcomes I don't care about. I don't care about story points, and meetings focused on story points demotivate me. I'm demotivated by sprints followed by another sprint followed by another sprint; the problem is right there in th…

I don’t think most programmers code for fun in their free time. I do and know quite some who also do code for fun but still…. Story points and sprints are there to save you from people who would otherwise come to you and ask for changes or shift priorities on daily basis. You don’t care about story points but with them you can say “I am busy with this 8 pt story will pick next when I am done” instead of having some p…

> I don’t think most programmers code for fun in their free time.

Maybe not, I haven't done a study. But literally every dev that I personally know (well enough to know what they do in their free time) does this.

> save you from people who would otherwise come to you and ask for changes or shift priorities on daily basis.

The problem is that one of the jobs of a manager is to shield devs from this. A manager who is bad enough that they aren't able to do that is probably also a manager who won't stop (or may even take part in) the abuse of Agile mechanisms as leverage over the devs.

I think this problem is one of the main reasons why agile is largely a failure.

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#17

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

I was a [pretty damn good] manager, for over 25 years. I kept employees for decades, under conditions of significantly less pay and perks, than many other companies.

But I also managed a small, high-performing group of mature, experienced C++ programmers, for a corporation that actually believed in retaining talent for years. It was also one of the top imaging companies in the world, and they demanded a lot from us.

When they finally rolled up my team, after 27 years, the employee with the least tenure had a decade. The employees with the most (Yours Truly, and one other), had just shy of 27 years.

I'm pretty sure that my management style would get me fired, at most tech companies, these days.

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#18

Post by JohnFen »

paulcole wrote: post #9

Nobody can make someone else motivated. You can put someone in a situation where they can motivate themselves, but you personally can’t make anyone motivated to do anything. If you disagree, think about this: Would you bet your life that if you offered me $1,000,000 to work at Burger King for a year that I’d be motivated to take the offer? What about paying me $1,000,000,000 to sit on a beach for a year? Or maybe jus…

> Nobody can make someone else motivated.

This is certainly true. But people can easily demotivate others.

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#19

Post by saagarjha »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #17

I was a [pretty damn good] manager, for over 25 years. I kept employees for decades, under conditions of significantly less pay and perks, than many other companies. But I also managed a small, high-performing group of mature, experienced C++ programmers, for a corporation that actually believed in retaining talent for years. It was also one of the top imaging companies in the world, and they demanded a lot from us.…

> I kept employees for decades, under conditions of significantly less pay and perks, than many other companies.

I guess you were a good manager for the company, but were you one for your employees?

Re: We need motivation (good managers)

#20

Post by JohnFen »

pseudoramble wrote: post #5
303uru wrote: post #4

While the essay offers an interesting perspective on motivation and corporate culture, I disagree with some of its conclusions. The emphasis on middle managers as the key to resolving the current motivational crisis in the workplace seems overly simplistic. Middle managers indeed play a crucial role in team dynamics and motivation, but the issues at hand are systemic and require a broader approach than simply relying…

This is a bit tangential, but, have middle managers ever actually had those powers? I mean this in a genuine way. My post college career began in 2011, and all I've known is hopeful managers who aren't empowered to do much of anything like just decide to hire a person, give somebody a raise, or make major changes to company strategy or anything. Is that one of those things that really did exists like offices with clo…

> have middle managers ever actually had those powers?

Oh, yes, I've had many managers who were empowered over the last 35+ years. I have one right now. But how true this is depends on the company culture.

I doubt that I'd stick around long at a company that wasn't like this. I'd leave on the basis of the company having poor management.

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