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Safetyism killed playtime

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Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#121

Post by InSteady »

cooper_ganglia wrote: post #88
gosub100 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the boo boos are fine, but what about medical costs? Thats a component that I hear nobody talk about with safetyism. Can you imagine what a $15-20k bill for a broken arm (ambulance, ER, surgery, medication, follow-up visits) does to a middle or lower-class family? This a major factor to why people sue, because they can't afford these kinds of boo-boos.

Average out-of-pocket cost for a broken bone is $2,500. Certainly not nothing, but kids don't break a bone every month or probably even every year, so it doesn't seem like too wild of a number in the long run. You can extrapolate this further. Why would I allow my 15 year old to start driving? What if she gets into a car accident, and I have to... shudder ... pay her medical bills? I think the potential monetary liab…

Chronic unwellness due to a lifetime of sedentary activity and lack of consistent exercise on the other hand... that can often break the bank. Habits that define us for our entire lives start as children. Wont happen for literally everyone, but the majority of kids who are force to spend unstructured time outside will eventually figure out how to enjoy it, and will be that much healthier their entire lives as a result.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#122

Post by gosub100 »

cooper_ganglia wrote: post #88
gosub100 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the boo boos are fine, but what about medical costs? Thats a component that I hear nobody talk about with safetyism. Can you imagine what a $15-20k bill for a broken arm (ambulance, ER, surgery, medication, follow-up visits) does to a middle or lower-class family? This a major factor to why people sue, because they can't afford these kinds of boo-boos.

Average out-of-pocket cost for a broken bone is $2,500. Certainly not nothing, but kids don't break a bone every month or probably even every year, so it doesn't seem like too wild of a number in the long run. You can extrapolate this further. Why would I allow my 15 year old to start driving? What if she gets into a car accident, and I have to... shudder ... pay her medical bills? I think the potential monetary liab…

$2500 is the low end that does not require surgery [1]. Which I presume is the ER visit itself. With surgery we're back to my original estimate of $15-20k. My claim is not that kids shouldn't play (or that your daughter shouldn't drive a car, thats a bizarre non-sequitur). It's that people are more litigious, and the medical costs are why.

> Breaking a bone won't destroy you physically or financially,

You knew one kid who got hurt and recovered, ergo medical bills from injured children aren't ruinous to the families (or single parents) that raise them? Thanks, I can sleep easy tonight.

1. https://www.talktomira.com/post/how-much-does-a-broken-bone-...

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#123

Post by s1artibartfast »

giantg2 wrote: post #89
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has 10x the road traffic fatalities per capita than we do. People ask if China is safe, and...they never really look at traffic fatalities numbers which are way more significant than getting stabbed to death by some guy at a drum tower. Beijing is the only place I saw someone die before (bicycle ran a red light, taxi was speeding through the intersection at a yellow light, its weird how everything goes at slow…

Pedestrian fatalities in the US involve alcohol about 50% of the time by at least one party. 38% of pedestrians killed have BACs over .08.

Similarly, 16% of pedestrian fatalities were on freeways. 59% were on non-freeway arterials, while 22% were on local streets.

It seems like individual pedestrian can do quite a bit of risk mitigation by staying sober and out of traffic.

These stats match my anecdotal experience where I have had numerous close calls as a driver due to pedestrians where they shouldn't be (eg people on the freeway), but no close calls while walking sober on Surface streets.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#124

Post by lesuorac »

jahewson wrote: post #38
ethanbond wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO traffic violations should be punished way, way, way more severely than they are. In the US, licenses do need to be easy to get otherwise you lock people out of society (unfortunately), but they don't need to be easy to keep and you should drive with constant awareness that you will be taken to the cleaners for mishaps. Automated enforcement tech should be widespread and incur license revocations and salary/wealth…

License revocations are only effective for people who respect rules.

Meh, having a suspended license doesn't actually stop you from being able to drive.

Both physically you don't have to swipe in to drive but also legally you can still drive [1].

[1]: https://www.graciamintz.com/blog/2021/march/how-to-get-a-har...

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#125

Post by kspacewalk2 »

donatj wrote: post #94
lostlogin wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at a reasonable speed like 30. Hitting a kid at 30 is going to cause some harm. I don’t think that 30 is a good compromise. They are rare where I live but street layouts which promote better driving would help. They have low/no kerbs and wind through planting etc to keep speed down. However this messes up a commute to work, so unfortunately it’s not a perfect solution.

If that's the goal is to cause no harm, we can't have cars. Hitting someone with a 5000lb chunk of metal at any speed is going to cause harm. The solution here is just to not hit them to begin with. I think it's 30mph is a reasonable speed for not hitting people.

The likelihood of severe injury or death goes down dramatically with lower speeds. A reasonable speed is a variable concept, but certainly minor residential streets should never have speeds in excess of 40 kmh (25 mph). My city recently reduced the limit to 40 kmh on all such streets. Now they just have to go the other 95% of the work - physically designing the streets for their posted limits, so that the option of speeding is simply removed (unless you're okay with regularly spending money at a body shop).

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#126

Post by acuozzo »

rconti wrote: post #77
acuozzo wrote: post #22

I know the article focuses on the UK and what I'm about to state has little to do with the UK, but as a suburban US dad with three children I feel compelled to share that drivers are what keep me from feeling comfortable letting my seven and four year old play outside unsupervised. I've seen so many incidents of (young?) drivers tearing through sleepy suburban streets at highway speeds here in Maryland that I specifi…

So you chose a house on a dead-end street but also are still afraid to let your children play outside?

I let them do it much more than I used to; closer to normal than zero as it used to be.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#127

Post by acuozzo »

freitzkriesler2 wrote: post #37
acuozzo wrote: post #22

I know the article focuses on the UK and what I'm about to state has little to do with the UK, but as a suburban US dad with three children I feel compelled to share that drivers are what keep me from feeling comfortable letting my seven and four year old play outside unsupervised. I've seen so many incidents of (young?) drivers tearing through sleepy suburban streets at highway speeds here in Maryland that I specifi…

Your memory must be bad because I remember cars driving down my suburban street at highway speeds in the mid 90s. The lesson imparted as a kid was to always look both ways, assume no one sees you, and get in and out quickly. If you haven’t taught your kids to not impulsively run after balls into streets, that’s on you. Even my 3 year old knows better than to walk into a street after a ball. I literally watched him st…

> If you haven’t taught your kids to not impulsively run after balls into streets, that’s on you.

I have. My children aren't perfect. They make mistakes like most children do.

I'm glad to read that your three year old does not. That's awesome! I'd love for my children to never fall prey to their own impulsivity.

The inner peace from having successfully imparted computer-like unwavering conscientiousness to your child must be unparalleled. I'm envious.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#128

Post by danenania »

ryanobjc wrote: post #118
danenania wrote: post #27

I've been volunteer teaching at my daughter's preschool every other week. Getting this balance right is tricky and it's interesting to see how teachers and other parents at the school approach it. My inclination is to be pretty laissez faire, partly because I believe in letting kids learn things on their own as much as possible even if that involves some bruises and scrapes, and partly because it's just easier to let…

I think this depends heavily on where you are and if you are just at a preschool or a 'coop-preschool'. We do the latter, and I was parent teacher. Not a volunteer position: our preschool dues are lower because I worked in the classroom, in a sense it's a "paid" gig. We had a very relaxed attitude towards personal harm. Getting hurt, crying, and getting better is part of the learning process. Not to say that we exces…

Yeah this is a coop as well. I think of it as volunteering but I suppose you’re right that technically it’s a bit different since we do get lower tuition in exchange.

This is in San Mateo and it sounds pretty similar to your experience. Very play-based and hands-off for the most part with a lot of outside time. It hasn’t gone as far as sanctioned wrestling matches at this school but I like the concept!

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#129

Post by latchkey »

acuozzo wrote: post #22

I know the article focuses on the UK and what I'm about to state has little to do with the UK, but as a suburban US dad with three children I feel compelled to share that drivers are what keep me from feeling comfortable letting my seven and four year old play outside unsupervised. I've seen so many incidents of (young?) drivers tearing through sleepy suburban streets at highway speeds here in Maryland that I specifi…

I'm house sitting in a gated community area of Irvine, CA for the week. I was walking down the sidewalk and watched a woman drive past me, staring down at her phone. I thought to myself, she's going to get into an accident. 10 seconds later, she's up on the curb, luckily misses a tree, corrects and keeps on driving as if nothing happened. F'cking nuts.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#130

Post by danenania »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #119
danenania wrote: post #27

I've been volunteer teaching at my daughter's preschool every other week. Getting this balance right is tricky and it's interesting to see how teachers and other parents at the school approach it. My inclination is to be pretty laissez faire, partly because I believe in letting kids learn things on their own as much as possible even if that involves some bruises and scrapes, and partly because it's just easier to let…

> learn things on their own as much as possible even if that involves some bruises and scrapes One could even make the case that youth is THE time to learn the lessons to be had in bruises and scrapes, because they are valuable and kids heal like starfish. Not counting developmental insults like head trauma, persistent environmental toxins etc but like falling out of a tree is usually better than being on a football…

Yep, very true, though if you look with a paranoid eye at a bunch of kids playing, you can often imagine a bunch of head injuries that could occur at any given moment if things were to go perfectly wrong. I think that’s where the over-protectionism comes from.

It’s something you learn to calibrate with experience I guess based on many subtle clues. Kids in general do have kind of an uncanny ‘land on their feet’ ability where even when you’re sure they’re going to mess themselves up they usually end up being fine.

Can’t get too comfortable either though because every once in awhile they’ll try something that really will mess them up if they aren’t stopped.

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