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Safetyism killed playtime

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Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#81

Post by seanmcdirmid »

acdha wrote: post #67
giantg2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"licenses do need to be easy to get" This is what allows the situation we have. People either don't get caught, or only get caught after injury has occurred. "traffic violations should be punished way, way, way more severely than they are." It depends on the infection. Many are already severe, such as being arrested for racing, going 25+ over the limit, DUI, etc. DUI is a factor in about a 3rd of fatalities and is al…

If education worked, we wouldn’t see stats going up contrary to the rest of the world. The problem is that enforcement has declined radically and drivers have learned that there will be basically no consequences for anything short of a fatality and often even then it’ll be minimal. One of the big problems is that the early signals are ignored: the guy saying the dead pedestrian “jumped in front” of his truck now almo…

China has 10x the road traffic fatalities per capita than we do. People ask if China is safe, and...they never really look at traffic fatalities numbers which are way more significant than getting stabbed to death by some guy at a drum tower. Beijing is the only place I saw someone die before (bicycle ran a red light, taxi was speeding through the intersection at a yellow light, its weird how everything goes at slow motion at the point).

I've actually had pedestrians jump in front of me before at green lights in North Seattle on Aurora, which is famous for traffic fatalities. In this case, the problem aren't bad drivers, but fentanyl. Sometimes the pedestrians really are at fault. Also, we design our streets like ass; e.g. encouraging pedestrian and car traffic at the same time along with ample pedestrian-obscuring on-street parking (you really can't have both!). In this case, yes, the cars need to do the right thing, but that's made difficult enough that tragedies occur way too often. We need to get the Dutch to teach us how its done.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#82

Post by marcosdumay »

ethanbond wrote: post #34
acuozzo wrote: post #22

I know the article focuses on the UK and what I'm about to state has little to do with the UK, but as a suburban US dad with three children I feel compelled to share that drivers are what keep me from feeling comfortable letting my seven and four year old play outside unsupervised. I've seen so many incidents of (young?) drivers tearing through sleepy suburban streets at highway speeds here in Maryland that I specifi…

IMO traffic violations should be punished way, way, way more severely than they are. In the US, licenses do need to be easy to get otherwise you lock people out of society (unfortunately), but they don't need to be easy to keep and you should drive with constant awareness that you will be taken to the cleaners for mishaps. Automated enforcement tech should be widespread and incur license revocations and salary/wealth…

That won't get you anywhere. If you require cars, you'll get misbehaving cars, as they come in no other format.

What fixes this is creating collective transportation. Multimodal and capillary transportation options that people can use. And after that, you just phase cars outside of the city.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#84

Post by eitally »

A lot of this has to do with parents' choices. Specifically, choices in where to live and how to raise their kids. It's still plenty possible to enable free, and free-ish playtime in the US, but teaching kids to respect risk has to begin young.

I live in a top 10 city -- San Jose -- with crazy commute traffic up and down the peninsula. But we chose to raise our kids on a two block long street with a church at one end and a park at the other. We get very little through traffic and they play outside largely unsupervised. As they get older, they bike to school independently, to their neighborhood schools (.75mi elementary, 1.2mi middle/high). When they're K-3rd, I bike with them to teach them safety rules. The older ones in middle & high school are on their own, commuting back & forth including staying after school for sports practices and events. We did buy them phones in 6th grade for our benefit, but I generally feel like by age 10 they're able to make pretty reasonable decisions on their own about most things, and know when to ask if they're unsure.

It's critical, imho, for parents to focus on things like this in the early years because by the time kids are in middle & high school they're going to naturally start becoming more independent and must be able to assess situations and make smart decisions (or make stupid decisions and learn from them). Too much restriction on play and independence ultimately results in incomplete development, which can have cascading effects as adolescents transition into adulthood.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#85

Post by lostlogin »

donatj wrote: post #44
fastneutron wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto. It’s not the breathless hysteria about child abduction or (conversely) busybody neighbors calling the cops on unaccompanied minors that keep my kids inside. It’s the insane drivers in 4 ton lifted pickups and the town’s refusal to lower the speed limit, or even post “Children Playing” signs that does it.

Lowering the speed limit isn't going to get the guy in the glass packed souped up Honda who blows through the stop sign in front of my house multiple times a day to actually slow down. That's that dudes whole deal. It's just going to give highly attentive people tickets that want to get to work at a reasonable speed like 30.

> at a reasonable speed like 30.

Hitting a kid at 30 is going to cause some harm. I don’t think that 30 is a good compromise.

They are rare where I live but street layouts which promote better driving would help. They have low/no kerbs and wind through planting etc to keep speed down.

However this messes up a commute to work, so unfortunately it’s not a perfect solution.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#86

Post by jollyllama »

acuozzo wrote: post #22

I know the article focuses on the UK and what I'm about to state has little to do with the UK, but as a suburban US dad with three children I feel compelled to share that drivers are what keep me from feeling comfortable letting my seven and four year old play outside unsupervised. I've seen so many incidents of (young?) drivers tearing through sleepy suburban streets at highway speeds here in Maryland that I specifi…

Great observation. It's not inherently the street or urban/suburban design that changed, something else has changed.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#87

Post by magicmicah85 »

giantg2 wrote: post #70
magicmicah85 wrote: post #62

My own personal experience. We made the mistake of buying a suburban town home next to a state highway with an HOA. At the time it seemed great but as our kids got older, they wanted to play outside. We’d get letters from the HOA about the kids playing in the street and how that wasn’t allowed cause of the bylaws. We ignored them and let them continue to do what they want. One time a board member tried yelling at the…

Just an FYI, but most municipalities have "sidewalks" legally defined as right of ways. They are available to use even if they are unimproved (grass). So that could be something to look into. Most of my childhood was in areas without paved sidewalks. The grosser part is that you live in an HOA that can make (and enforce) those sorts of rules.

That’s good to know, I did think that if I’m walking under the powerlines along the road, I’m probably within an easement.

And believe me, I wish we could move, but we are currently priced out of anything else in our town. Our kids are at an age where they do not want to switch schools but as soon as they are all graduated, we will be looking.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#88

Post by cooper_ganglia »

gosub100 wrote: post #61
freitzkriesler2 wrote: post #32

One of my favorite things about Texas is the fact that their playgrounds are actually dangerous with real risk. At one playground, there are these rings you crawl through to go from one part to another. The rings are attached by chains and the gaps between them are wide enough to slide through. I wish I had a picture these things were so awesome. There are other playgrounds with ropes and climbing walls with signific…

the boo boos are fine, but what about medical costs? Thats a component that I hear nobody talk about with safetyism. Can you imagine what a $15-20k bill for a broken arm (ambulance, ER, surgery, medication, follow-up visits) does to a middle or lower-class family? This a major factor to why people sue, because they can't afford these kinds of boo-boos.

Average out-of-pocket cost for a broken bone is $2,500. Certainly not nothing, but kids don't break a bone every month or probably even every year, so it doesn't seem like too wild of a number in the long run.

You can extrapolate this further. Why would I allow my 15 year old to start driving? What if she gets into a car accident, and I have to... shudder... pay her medical bills? I think the potential monetary liabilities of your children's life experiences should not be the focus, or even something considered too much.

When I was in 4th grade, I knew a kid who fell off a playground, got a sharp pinecone seed behind his eye, and broke his back. He's healthy today, his back and eye are okay, and his family is doing fine financially. Breaking a bone won't destroy you physically or financially, but thinking that it will just makes the urge for safetyism stronger.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#89

Post by giantg2 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #81
acdha wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If education worked, we wouldn’t see stats going up contrary to the rest of the world. The problem is that enforcement has declined radically and drivers have learned that there will be basically no consequences for anything short of a fatality and often even then it’ll be minimal. One of the big problems is that the early signals are ignored: the guy saying the dead pedestrian “jumped in front” of his truck now almo…

China has 10x the road traffic fatalities per capita than we do. People ask if China is safe, and...they never really look at traffic fatalities numbers which are way more significant than getting stabbed to death by some guy at a drum tower. Beijing is the only place I saw someone die before (bicycle ran a red light, taxi was speeding through the intersection at a yellow light, its weird how everything goes at slow…

Pedestrian fatalities in the US involve alcohol about 50% of the time by at least one party. 38% of pedestrians killed have BACs over .08.

Re: Safetyism killed playtime

#90

Post by badpun »

jimberlage wrote: post #12
pfdietz wrote: post #2

I broke 3 arms while I was a kid. I was lucky I didn't break a neck. I think safetyism is just fine.

Are you lucky, or are necks less likely to break than arms due to evolutionary pressure?

Well, arms are much longer (so, a larger lever), and people instinctually extend them to blunt the fall. Whereas it's instint to protect head and neck in the same situation.
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