How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#91

Post by phasetransition » Tue, Jan 30, 2024, 6:36 PM UTC

rendaw wrote: post #67

gwright wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to avoid the snarky "hire an attorney" answer but once you get past that necessary first step I do have a few tips: * get comfortable reading legal documents, this will allow you to have more intelligent conversations with your attorney * don't let your attorney make your business decisions, one of their jobs is to point out risks, one of your jobs (owner/ceo/leadership) is to figure out how to mitigate ris…

Okay, since you failed to avoid the snarky "hire an attorney" thing, I'm going to ask: how much would it reasonably cost to hire an attorney for advice on this? Assuming the contacting lawyer is on shaky ground. No "it depends" please, a ballpark. Maybe it's cheaper to have one on retainer. How much per month, if like a normal citizen your only daily legal risks are random megacorporations threatening you? Should eve…

Most smaller firms will require a retainer. $5k is fairly common. I've been able to work with several large firms for work, and several smaller firms for personal stuff.

Personally, I much prefer the larger firms. In general their work product, responsiveness, and timeliness is well ahead of small firms. They aren't even that much more expensive for some things. Unfortunately I don't know what the retainer $$ would be, if any, for a larger firm.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#92

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel » Tue, Jan 30, 2024, 6:38 PM UTC

jksmith wrote: post #70

My attorney always said: 1) Good problem to have. 2) If they had something, they wouldn't threaten you, they'd just act. It's the risk/reward ratio. Unless it's worth reacting to, file 13 that shit.

If their primary goal was to get you to stop, I'd assume they'd send a C&D first too because it's a lot less headache for them if that makes the problem go away.

So I wouldn't see a C&D as a guaranteed sign that they aren't willing to sue, but the threshold for "want you to stop and are willing to sue for it" is much, much, MUCH higher than the threshold for "eh, I'll send a C&D and see if this makes it go away, if not, not worth it".

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#93

Post by KieranMac » Tue, Jan 30, 2024, 6:41 PM UTC

localhost3000 wrote: post #6

Used to periodically get a c&d email from FB lawyers for some harmless software I published. Always completely ignored it, not even responding to acknowledge receipt. It eventually stopped. I figure they gave up and focused their efforts on targets who showed they would be responsive to threats. It was 100% bullying.

It is worth pointing out that FB has a long history of litigating this issue, from Power Ventures, to BrandTotal, to Octoparse, to Voyager Labs and more. And they have about 80-90% track record of success. Obviously, they send C&Ds more often than they file litigation. But to act as if this is a completely idle threat is naive.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#94

Post by ls612 » Tue, Jan 30, 2024, 6:42 PM UTC

User23 wrote: post #31

> *Apparently there are some legal systems, particularly in Europe, where the costs of taking Big Tech to court are lower. You’d have to ask your lawyer about that. The time and willpower aspects may be similar though. I’m not a lawyer, let alone a European lawyer, but I’ve heard that the drain-their-bankroll-with-spurious-motions technique that’s beloved by shithead corporations and their attorneys when they have no…

Loser pays has a different trade off. If you have a case which is close on the merits (where you may well win but it isn’t certain) you may want to concede early because you are risk averse about paying BigCo’s legal fees. It isn’t a free lunch. It just shifts the pain points to a different class of cases.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#95

Post by zhengyi13 » Tue, Jan 30, 2024, 6:43 PM UTC

rendaw wrote: post #67

gwright wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to avoid the snarky "hire an attorney" answer but once you get past that necessary first step I do have a few tips: * get comfortable reading legal documents, this will allow you to have more intelligent conversations with your attorney * don't let your attorney make your business decisions, one of their jobs is to point out risks, one of your jobs (owner/ceo/leadership) is to figure out how to mitigate ris…

Okay, since you failed to avoid the snarky "hire an attorney" thing, I'm going to ask: how much would it reasonably cost to hire an attorney for advice on this? Assuming the contacting lawyer is on shaky ground. No "it depends" please, a ballpark. Maybe it's cheaper to have one on retainer. How much per month, if like a normal citizen your only daily legal risks are random megacorporations threatening you? Should eve…

Depending on whose advice you value, Deviant Ollam has a video on YouTube entitled "Lawyer, Passport, Locksmith, Gun"[1] where he makes the argument that yeah, you probably should have a lawyer as part of a broader personal risk-reduction strategy.

(I understand folk might take particular issue with that last as part of "risk reduction", but I hope that doesn't detract from the earlier parts of the strategy)

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ihrGNGesfI

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#96

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel » Tue, Jan 30, 2024, 6:43 PM UTC

As far as I understand, companies in the US really don't like actual litigation due to discovery: They'd be required to provide documents relevant to the case if requested. This not only risks making embarrassing documents part of the public record, but is also incredibly expensive since their lawyers have to review all the documents, and it can be a lot - and they generally can't recoup those fees.

If they really want you to stop, e.g. because you're putting their core business at risk, they might consider it, of course. But they won't do it for random bullshit. They do have infinite resources to crush you - but even they don't have enough resources to do it to everyone who ignores their C&D.

Also, I would expect the likelihood of getting sued (by a company that's acting rationally - small businesses where you've personally pissed off the owner can be different) depends on whether they can achieve their goal. If for example their goal is to keep you from publishing details about a security vulnerability and public embarrassment, the motivation to sue you is likely to go down once the vulnerability is public and their behavior has been reported in the tech press, and continuing to press it will just continue to the Streisand effect.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#97

Post by KieranMac » Tue, Jan 30, 2024, 6:47 PM UTC

lgleason wrote: post #10

The best thing to do is to know that law and your legal rights. Anybody can write a cease and desist. It is a first step towards a lawsuit, but given how inexpensive they are to write they are an easy way to intimidate small businesses.

The best way to perform surgery is to read a few articles online and then get to cutting!

It is certainly true that anyone can respond to a C&D letter. But whether you can do so without doing more harm than good is another question.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#98

Post by NegativeK » Tue, Jan 30, 2024, 6:49 PM UTC

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #36

It's sad that most people are less "legally literate" than they are "scientifically literate", when the former affects them more often throughout life. Schools should teach kids how to not get screwed over with the law. Tenants' rights in particular is very important and almost nobody I know understands them, or how brazenly landlords/management companies will rip you off if you let them.

Most people I see talking about their legal literacy are best described as cocky and dangerous to themselves and others they give advice to. The same behavior shows up with medical literacy.

Maybe schooling could help with that.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#99

Post by phendrenad2 » Tue, Jan 30, 2024, 6:49 PM UTC

Man, fuck Facebook. The one-off C&D sent to anyone who appears to be using your trademark I can understand. Sending the guy a bill for $30,000? Now that involved human forethought. Something seems to be going on over at the Fsckbook legal department and it isn't good.

Re: How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech

#100

Post by brendoelfrendo » Tue, Jan 30, 2024, 6:51 PM UTC

rendaw wrote: post #67

gwright wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to avoid the snarky "hire an attorney" answer but once you get past that necessary first step I do have a few tips: * get comfortable reading legal documents, this will allow you to have more intelligent conversations with your attorney * don't let your attorney make your business decisions, one of their jobs is to point out risks, one of your jobs (owner/ceo/leadership) is to figure out how to mitigate ris…

Okay, since you failed to avoid the snarky "hire an attorney" thing, I'm going to ask: how much would it reasonably cost to hire an attorney for advice on this? Assuming the contacting lawyer is on shaky ground. No "it depends" please, a ballpark. Maybe it's cheaper to have one on retainer. How much per month, if like a normal citizen your only daily legal risks are random megacorporations threatening you? Should eve…

The reason why "it depends" is so often the answer is because legal questions are very situational and fact-specific. You'd need to consult with a lawyer on your specific situation to get an answer.

But, generally speaking, a quick consult and having a lawyer write a response letter is a few hundred dollars. Let's ballpark it as $300-1000, depending on the nature of the case. Now, that's assuming that the company that sent you the C&D doesn't sue you. If they sue you and you go to court, the lawyer fees go up quite a bit and become pretty much impossible to ballpark (though I'm sure someone has tried).

Having a lawyer on retainer isn't really necessary. It might be something you do if you're a business that doesn't have a lawyer on staff, but you want access to a lawyer's time when you need it. For most regular folks, I can't imagine setting up a retainer until you need to engage a lawyer for a case and want to guarantee their time.