On the other hand, as soon as you get those numbers someone will turn them into "performance indicators" and use them for optimization, and we all know where that tends to lead... I can understand the feeling of being forced to work with a system designed to get rid of you.
Everyone hates the electronic medical record
241–250 of 343 posts
Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record
#242I created the ClearHealth/HealthCloud open source (GPL) EMR which to my knowledge is the only open source one to receive full federal certification. Operations (not surgery) are so incredibly bad / incompetent in most healthcare settings that software frequently gets the blame for much deeper problems. This article is a doctors perspective on how software did not fix a completely broken workflow. I don't begrudge him…
This was my experience trying to create technology in the real estate world. Realtors are the same way.
When we try to automate part of a person's work, we have to encourage the person to take a look at themselves and the way they do their work. This is not easy for people! A lot of times we're asking someone to admit that they don't actually know why something is done a particular way. Or we point out that they are doing the work of another person in another department. And, all the time, this person is worried that at the end they will be replaced by software and lose their job.
I think it's really hard to get to a place where everyone is comfortable enough to be frank about what they do, what the software might be able to do, and what makes sense.
Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record
#243That being said, as someone that works in healthcare technology, has done clinical shadowing of physicians, worked the admin side of healthcare providers, worked technology for payers and providers, and has multiple close relationships with front line healthcare workers: I think this article missed the mark in several places. I've interacted enough with nurses and doctors to recognize rants about electronic health records and how they come from a valid place but use many poor examples.
1. Theres a weird implicit assumption throughout the entire essay that EHR implementations are uniquely bad in introducing friction and errors to the medical system. Take the example of his electronic orders to the lab and lamenting how in the old days that would be a simple note to lab on paper and that was somehow inherently better. As if errors around misreading notes or misplacing them didn't occur beforehand.
2. "There's an illusion that technology automates work - instead it only changes it". This is a faulty premise. There is a lot of work that has been completely automated away within healthcare not just changed. EHR enabled patient monitoring comes to mind. You can remotely capture and store vital signs for patients instead of rounding to each room and writing them down. With staffing shortages for all jobs in healthcare we would probably be in a much worse place if we were still relying on paper.
3. "There is also more clinical work. Increasing corporatization of medicine and staff shortages have increased the volume of patient care for each healthcare worker, accelerated since the pandemic". There is definitely blame on admin for some of this but there is also artificial limiting of the number of new doctors each year by the AMA and it's lobbying. If there were more medical professionals I suspect that much of the "burnout from EHR's" would decrease. Add in the authors vitriol for a profit maximization even though profit of a health system allows them to hire more and pay more to compete with other industries for workers.
4. The author does not understand why the technology is implemented in a specific way. He is one stakeholder - the doctor and while an important one is not the only one that needs the data generated by a clinical interaction. Example: his complaint for there being multiple lab types for HIV in a drop down for ordering. This is specifically to reduce ambiguity and resulting medical errors, allows for more precise audit and reviewing of a patient's history, and carries a different cost for billing. He also blames EHR's for issues with different implementations of UI and workflows between hospitals even though most times hospitals are to blame for adding their own customizations.
While the author brings up good points he has an explicit bias against the current system even when it doesn't deserve the treatment he gives it. Most of the piece is generated more from a hatred of capitalism and a desire to refute the libertarian paternalism that he talks about rather than a fair and even treatment of the problem with the electronic health record system in the United States.
Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record
#244Earlier quoted context omitted.
That, my friend, sounds a lot like The Cat Ate My Source Code [The Pragmatic Programmer] Price, lead time, quality, (and scope) — pick any two. When the stakes are high, don't rely on your manager to pick quality — that is your responsibility. And if you can't convince your "boss" to give you enough time to deliver something that meets your bar, quit.
And then we have about 90% of working sw devs quit tomorrow - it sounds great but people are not going to leave when they know the next place is basically the exact same.
If my recommendation to bluntly quit sounded harsh, I'm happy to tone that down. There is value in compromise, but just make sure your voice is heard, say no if you cannot / will not do it in such little time to the extent that you feel is required. Fighting for the time to do our job well is our struggle. Sometimes it's easy, more frequently it's hard, but when it's simply impossible — have your boss find someone else.
Quality — at least internal quality — is primarily the responsibility of the software developer, not her/his boss or some QA department.
Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record
#245Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record
#246Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is entirely a data security issue. Depending on the environment, without a logout this is seriously risking a HIPAA violation. Say you're in the hospital and your doctor pulls up your record on a computer in the hallway after they've done rounds on you to put in their observations and notes. However just as he's finishing, his pager goes off, he's off to an emergency, and he forgets to log off. How many minutes…
> It's one of many instances where there's a valid reason for the technology to be implemented as such but since doctors usually aren't thinking about the technology or security aspects they just perceive it as annoying. No, there is never a good reason to prevent a professional from doing his job. If the user finds it annoying, it is annoying: that's it! Learn to work for the user rather than against the user, and y…
edit: in any case this is very likely a security configuration by the hospital infosec team, not the developer of the EMR.
Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Operations (not surgery) are so incredibly bad / incompetent in most healthcare settings that software frequently gets the blame for much deeper problems." "In my experience doctors are a tremendous barrier to resolving problems in healthcare operations," I'm a hospital-based physician that works in a system with great operations and results. The physicians, nurses and other staff work amicably together. Management…
One of the biggest scandals in Norwegian health care at the moment is a botched transition to Epic in one of the biggest university hospitals. Doctor dissatisfaction has gone to the roof at the point where 50% of the doctors are considering quitting. https://www.nrk.no/trondelag/70-leger-soker-aktivt-ny-jobb-v...
I know many people that have worked on their integration teams, and could not imagine having to deal with what they do.
Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think there is such a thing as an actually independent hospital anywhere. In most countries, the medical system seems to be a government monopoly. In America, it is an oligopoly that egregiously violates the anti-trust laws and whose real customers are the government and the health insurance companies. The entire industry seems like a politically connected bureaucratic nightmare of one kind or another in ever…
Medical malpractice insurance has only limited economies of scale. It's still possible for solo practitioners or small partnerships to afford in most cases. This isn't the biggest factor in driving provider market consolidation. The real factors driving consolidation are IT costs, negotiating power, and practitioner preferences. Even with modern SaaS products it's expensive for a small organization to operate an EHR…
Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record
#249Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am such dev. It’s not up to us. It’s up to our management. We would love to engineer good quality EMR, but upper management wouldn’t let us.
That, my friend, sounds a lot like The Cat Ate My Source Code [The Pragmatic Programmer] Price, lead time, quality, (and scope) — pick any two. When the stakes are high, don't rely on your manager to pick quality — that is your responsibility. And if you can't convince your "boss" to give you enough time to deliver something that meets your bar, quit.
I did this and while it solved my moral dilemma it made things worse for our users.
Many years ago I started my career working for a startup that got bought by a big government contractor. The most incredible people I've ever worked with tried harder than you can imagine to deliver reliable, usable software for the American taxpayer that met the very high bar we set for ourselves.
Because the incentives weren't aligned, most of the good people eventually quit to work at places where they could deliver something that met their bar and were replaced with junior devs and senior clock-watchers.
Every good person who left made that problem slightly harder for those of us who stayed because there was one less person fighting for quality and usability, but the contracts were as big as ever and the new people were less likely to rock the boat so management didn't care that product quality was dropping off a cliff.
In the end it was primarily our users who suffered.
Re: Everyone hates the electronic medical record
#250I created the ClearHealth/HealthCloud open source (GPL) EMR which to my knowledge is the only open source one to receive full federal certification. Operations (not surgery) are so incredibly bad / incompetent in most healthcare settings that software frequently gets the blame for much deeper problems. This article is a doctors perspective on how software did not fix a completely broken workflow. I don't begrudge him…
it is fairly popular in europe. What is required for federal certification ?
0. https://openehr.org/ 1. https://openehr.org/products_tools/platform/