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OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

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21–30 of 79 posts

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#21
The (in my view) problem with the author's argument is that the first step he claims is happening, is not. Publicly available content gets read, as is the point of publicly publishing it. Then the user uses a computer program to make some statistics about the bit of content. Those bits of statistics about that specific work, on their own, cannot reproduce or recrate the specific work. Then those statistics are put into a database and combined with the stats about billions of other works. Then another program is written to query the database to make probabilistic guesses responding to the prompts from a user. It's this last stage could potentially recreate a work in an infringing manner. But everthing that led up to that point (creating the model) is simply not something that current law considers to be infringing of copyright in any meaningful way. It doesn't even require a "fair use" assessment, because, creating statistics about a work, that cannot on their own reproduce the work, does not create a copy, nor does it make a public performance of the work.

Is this all terribly unfair to the people that published their work assuming this couldn't happen? Yes. But the response needs to be "lets come up with and pass better law" and not "lets twist and contort the current law to be something it's not."

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#22
In my opinion the New York Times has no moral claim about taking other people's work.

Their business to take other people's suffering, and use that to write stories to sell views (and newspapers).

An egregious example is Kim Phuc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phan_Thi_Kim_Phuc

They featured a naked, burned girl on the front page of the New York Times to sell copies. I am not aware of any compensation the New York Times offered her. Her permission was never asked.

That picture has defined how the public has viewed her for the rest of her life.

They would argue that doing this is in furtherance of public goods such as people knowing what is going on and they could not realistically seek permission from every person much less compensate every person featured in a news photo or story.

I think that may be a valid argument. But doesn't AI also have the potential to benefit society. Isn't using news articles as input for AI making AI better and more useful to society. If the news can use people's images and suffering to benefit society (while making money), why can't their news stories be used to train AI to benefit even more people with knowledge?

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#23
post #2

Can't agree more. These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. We will look back on this and wonder how we essentially subsidized these behemoth corporations, then allowed them to extract subscription fees back from the very people it took the labor from. Don't get me wrong, there are genuine innovations in AI and ML. But, on the same token, you can't have ChatGPT without content.

> These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades.

Do you repay publishers for information you’ve summarized or new insights you’ve gained after consuming their content? How is it different when AI does the same thing?

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#24
post #2

Can't agree more. These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. We will look back on this and wonder how we essentially subsidized these behemoth corporations, then allowed them to extract subscription fees back from the very people it took the labor from. Don't get me wrong, there are genuine innovations in AI and ML. But, on the same token, you can't have ChatGPT without content.

>These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. In practical terms, is that different from Google becoming a trillion-dollar company from its search offering?

Google is unique from an internet platform perspective in the sense that the value of companies built on the platform are as big, or bigger than Google itself (probably, rough math here)

Yes, Google has captured massive value, but they've also generated massive amounts of value for companies (including startups!).

Can the same be said for OpenAI?

If they live up to their non-profit mission, I think it could.

But it's not clear that it will.

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#25

Hard disagree. The whole concept of copyright is unnatural and technology evolution is showing its limits. In the same way a writer reads books and use that knowledge to create more, an ai model can do the same.

>In the same way a writer reads books and use that knowledge to create more, an ai model can do the same.

No, it can't. Literally.

The AI model doesn't decide which data goes into training it. People do. These people are doing something very, very bad.

Also, the AI model can't be held responsible for its actions. Again, people that create it and use it can be, however.

People on HN like to point out that an AI model is "just a tool", so work created with AI is still the work of the user.

It's only reasonable to point out that a tool is not the same thing as a writer. A tool lacks agency. Therefore, a tool isn't "learning" just like a writer.

A ZIP file isn't "learning" when it's created by transforming data into a binary file. Neither does a JPEG file.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If the AI model is equivalent to a sentient human being in your eyes, it should have the same rights and responsibilities. As long as it's being used, the equivalence isn't there.

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#26
post #2

Can't agree more. These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. We will look back on this and wonder how we essentially subsidized these behemoth corporations, then allowed them to extract subscription fees back from the very people it took the labor from. Don't get me wrong, there are genuine innovations in AI and ML. But, on the same token, you can't have ChatGPT without content.

In a just world, royalties would be paid to those whose content AIs were trained on.

In reality, the most we'll likely see is a few people who successfully sue for their small piece of the pie, while the big companies carry on like nothing happened - further accelerating the transfer of wealth right to the top.

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#27
I don't think it should be ok to copy the literal works, the example of it emitting large chunks of articles from NYT is egregious, but it should be ok for it to learn and synthesize anything it can see. It should ideally, for producers and consumers of information, also be able to function as an index.

Some of the pushback is the desire to collect fees or social capital for works, which is understandable, but at the same time that inherently creates walled gardens of information and the ability to combine (synthesize), something which could be considered outdated compared to what these algorithms could offer.

One somewhat reasonable outcome could be that for profit offerings must develop ways to limit excerpts and acknowledge sources, the latter similarly to how Google search works. I think it would be a terrible outcome if knowledge and AI abilities were splintered off to different product groupings (eg NYT only available via Apple AI).

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#28
post #23
post #2

Can't agree more. These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. We will look back on this and wonder how we essentially subsidized these behemoth corporations, then allowed them to extract subscription fees back from the very people it took the labor from. Don't get me wrong, there are genuine innovations in AI and ML. But, on the same token, you can't have ChatGPT without content.

> These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. Do you repay publishers for information you’ve summarized or new insights you’ve gained after consuming their content? How is it different when AI does the same thing?

Repay everyone in the form of UBI, tax the AI!!!

Re: OpenAI: Copy, Steal, Paste

#30
post #23
post #2

Can't agree more. These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. We will look back on this and wonder how we essentially subsidized these behemoth corporations, then allowed them to extract subscription fees back from the very people it took the labor from. Don't get me wrong, there are genuine innovations in AI and ML. But, on the same token, you can't have ChatGPT without content.

> These AI systems have been built on the back of free labor for decades. Do you repay publishers for information you’ve summarized or new insights you’ve gained after consuming their content? How is it different when AI does the same thing?

Yes. They get a subscription fee or are paid by advertising. No one pays to advertise to an AI.
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