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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#921

Post by nsoonhui »

megous wrote: post #908
nsoonhui wrote: post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: My this comment is being downvoted despite stating just a plain fact. Hopefully the downvoters can do everyone a service by explaining what's wrong with it. Like you said, HAMAS exists solely for the sake of resisting Jewish occupation [0], from the river to the sea , which also means the extermination of Israel and Jews [1]. And their conviction stems from their religion, Islam, which allows them to persist de…

How come? I don't know, but HAMAS clearly negotiates and does pragmatic things. It's a group of people with moderate and more radical elements like any other largish group. > Like you said, HAMAS exists solely for the sake of resisting Jewish occupation [0], from the river to the sea, which also means the extermination of Israel and Jews [1]. Quite a jump.

HAMAS pragmatism serves one purpose, the destruction of Israel, as outlined in their charter.

In 2017 they updated their charter to recognize the 1967 border but still not recognize Israel ( apparently anyone can be on other side of the fence except Israel). And lest you harbor any normalization fantasy, they kept up the aggression by fire rocket into Israel from time to time, which finally accumulated in the 10/7 attack.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#922

Post by edanm »

rayiner wrote: post #916
anon84873628 wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

> And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society What makes you think that’s even possible? Name any other Arab country you could plunk down next to Israel that wouldn’t constantly be trying to destroy Israel?

Israel has had peace with Egypt and Jordan, for a long time now.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#923

Post by weatherlite »

ajross wrote: post #623
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

> All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? It remains a mess, but less of a mess? Look, it's all bad guys running the show in that hell hole of a desert. There are no trusted entities anywhere able to run a government that isn't somewhere between actively antagonistic and actively genocidal toward half the local population. Nonetheless a status quo with less shooting and death i…

> An occasional October 7th is a better choice than levelling Gaza is

Better for who? For Hamas yes, killing Israelis with impunity would be a boost. But for Israel - I don't know of any democracy that can keep going with an 'occasional' October 7th. A country can't sustain that without collapsing at some point. Think about 9-11 but with 80k killed instead of 3000, and around 10000 kidnapped. And the entity responsible is just around the corner and gonna keep doing it on occasion. Those are the proportions. How many of these would the U.S be able to endure before its economy and society collapsed?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#924

Post by tim333 »

teleforce wrote: post #888
whalesalad wrote: post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Imagine trying to extend and justify every land conflict way further before the Roman Empire, hence the Italian can claim back their ruling over most of England, and the Moroccan over most of Spain.

The Israel situation is unusual in that the jews came from there, got dispersed a couple of thousand years ago, never really had a homeland elsewhere and then some of them decided to come back. There's not much else like that. It's not like the Italians were driven from Italy and have waited centuries to return.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#925

Post by weatherlite »

aurelien_gasser wrote: post #681
ajross wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? It remains a mess, but less of a mess? Look, it's all bad guys running the show in that hell hole of a desert. There are no trusted entities anywhere able to run a government that isn't somewhere between actively antagonistic and actively genocidal toward half the local population. Nonetheless a status quo with less shooting and death i…

> Hamas killed fewer people than Israel did/is That's an understatement, Hamas killed less than 1,000 civilians, Israel killed 20,000+

All Palestinians deaths are civilians by your measures.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#926

Post by [deleted] »

tim333 wrote: post #915
peterashford wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People said Apartheid South Africa couldn't end without a bloodbath. People said peace in Northern Ireland was impossible. People thought the Cold War would never end. Impossible things are impossible until they aren't. I'm not saying that any of these things are easy - they clearly are not. But history shows us again and again that change is possible when people work towards it in good faith. From a practical point…

Peace could be achieved fairly easily if both sides said they want to live in peace. However only one does. I think that will change eventually.

[deleted]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#927

Post by ethanbond »

tim333 wrote: post #915
peterashford wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People said Apartheid South Africa couldn't end without a bloodbath. People said peace in Northern Ireland was impossible. People thought the Cold War would never end. Impossible things are impossible until they aren't. I'm not saying that any of these things are easy - they clearly are not. But history shows us again and again that change is possible when people work towards it in good faith. From a practical point…

Peace could be achieved fairly easily if both sides said they want to live in peace. However only one does. I think that will change eventually.

“Peace while continuing to seize land” is a peculiar-enough type of peace to not really qualify for simply “wants to live in peace” by many people’s definition.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#928

Post by SomeoneFromCA »

Asafp wrote: post #902
throwaway421967 wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the comment that I replied to was flagged, I'm posting this here because it is simply a statement of facts. - Judge Barak's numbers on civilian deaths on 7th october are simply wrong and could've been easily checked. 766 civilians were killed, 1200 was the total number of deaths (including armed forces). - Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% in the Gaza offensive.…

[flagged]

> Big difference is that Israel is not targeting civilians on purpose

I think this is not a justified statement. Keeping in mind hat israeli government is clearly very far right, and on multiple occasions have brought up deranged things about Amalek, about "no innocents in Gaza", I think one can establish a reasonable doubt about the true intent of idf actions.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#929

Post by cpach »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #899

What is the guidance regarding commenters who are obvious trolls, propagandists and bad faith actors? Being kind to them is completely wasted effort. Replying to them is also wasted effort as they won't be persuaded. However leaving bullshit unchallenged might make trusting bystanders believe that this is actually the truth.

It can be quite hard to be kind when it comes to a highly inflammatory topic such as Palestine–Israel. However, IMHO it’s not really a topic suited for HN. I find it hard to believe that whatever we say here on this topic will have any meaningful impact on the war.
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