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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#901

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

Unfortunately , pouring money in gaza while hamas is in power only funnels it to weapons and terror infrastructure.

How do we know it ? We've been doing that for the past 15 years.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#902
post #36

The actual rulings can be found at https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... and a summary is: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Dissents etc can be found in the case page: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 - in particular the opinion of Judge Aharon Barak, the Israeli ad-hoc Judge (a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have m…

Since the comment that I replied to was flagged, I'm posting this here because it is simply a statement of facts. - Judge Barak's numbers on civilian deaths on 7th october are simply wrong and could've been easily checked. 766 civilians were killed, 1200 was the total number of deaths (including armed forces). - Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% in the Gaza offensive.…

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#903
post #263

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the…

>> Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them.

I struggle to believe this is really a comment by a "commander in the IDF". Such a person should know that the use of civilians as human shields by one side does not absolve the other side from taking every precaution to minimise harm coming to those civilians.

Risk to civilians does not bar military action, but the principle of proportionality requires that precautions be taken to minimize the harm to these protected persons. This analysis includes considerations like whether circumstances permit the attacker to time a military action to minimize the presence of civilians at the location.[16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_(law)#Legal_doctr...

Specifically, saying the IDF doesn't target them, they're just in the way, is a cynical denial of that responsibility.

Further, a commander of the IDF would remember the proverb about throwing stones when living in a glass house: there is extensive documentation of the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields by the IDF. See for example the Goldstone Report on Operation Cast Lead (2009):

  10. The use of Palestinian civilians as human shields

  55. The Mission investigated four incidents in which Israeli forces coerced Palestinian civilian
  men at gun point to take part in house searches during the military operations (Chapter XIV).
  The Palestinian men were blindfolded and handcuffed as they were forced to enter houses ahead
  of the Israeli soldiers. In one of the incidents, Israeli forces repeatedly forced a man to enter a
  house in which Palestinian combatants were hiding. Published testimonies of Israeli soldiers who
  took part in the military operations confirm the continued use of this practice, in spite of clear
  orders from Israel’s High Court to the armed forces to put an end to it and repeated public
  assurances from the armed forces that the practice had been discontinued. The Mission
  concludes that this practice amounts to the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields and is
  therefore prohibited by international humanitarian law. 
https://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/20... (page 19 of the pdf).

Despite Israel's claims Hamas does not use civilians in this way. Instead they fight from built-up areas and make it difficult to distinguish combatant from non-combatant. They "hide among civilians" but they don't "use them as shields".

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#904
post #720
post #263

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the…

> The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. The rubble of the numerous civilian homes and buildings you've leveled are the mass graves.

There's no need to guess like that. Just search for "mass graves gaza", there are plenty of reports of actual mass graves, from Reuters, NYT, SkyNews, The Guardian, etc etc, with pictures and all. See my other comments in this theread for links.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#905
post #778
post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. The rubble of the numerous civilian homes and buildings you've leveled are the mass graves.

Nope. Those are just buildings. Without people, they are just structures. Again, if Hamas was firing at us from behind civilians (which they do a lot), then we had no choice. You can't just call anything a mass grave for the sake of convenience.

>> Without people, they are just structures.

Those houses are full of people and there are estimated to be thousands of dead under the rubble.

Thousands of bodies lie buried in Gaza’s rubble. Families dig to retrieve them, often by hand

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-11-17/bodies...

Under the rubble: The missing in Gaza

Finding the 7,000 Palestinians believed buried under collapsed buildings is becoming increasingly difficult.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/longform/2023/12/28/under...

‘Scarred for life’: the families still seeking dead amid Gaza rubble

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/25/scarred-for-li...

etc etc.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#906

What is the guidance regarding commenters who are obvious trolls, propagandists and bad faith actors? Being kind to them is completely wasted effort. Replying to them is also wasted effort as they won't be persuaded. However leaving bullshit unchallenged might make trusting bystanders believe that this is actually the truth.

Polite factual refutation probably works.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#907
post #906

What is the guidance regarding commenters who are obvious trolls, propagandists and bad faith actors? Being kind to them is completely wasted effort. Replying to them is also wasted effort as they won't be persuaded. However leaving bullshit unchallenged might make trusting bystanders believe that this is actually the truth.

Polite factual refutation probably works.

I wish this was true. It usually leads to those super long reply-battles dang was referring to.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#908
post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Today we are faced with an Islamist cause, led by Hamas. Obviously, this kind of cause is absolute and allows no form of negotiation." Lost me there, because this is not the framing that matches reality. There were several instances where Hamas was willing to form unity government with Fatah/PLO, to share power, negotiate, to do things like that. It's first and foremost a national liberation movement. The movement i…

Edit: My this comment is being downvoted despite stating just a plain fact. Hopefully the downvoters can do everyone a service by explaining what's wrong with it. Like you said, HAMAS exists solely for the sake of resisting Jewish occupation [0], from the river to the sea , which also means the extermination of Israel and Jews [1]. And their conviction stems from their religion, Islam, which allows them to persist de…

How come? I don't know, but HAMAS clearly negotiates and does pragmatic things. It's a group of people with moderate and more radical elements like any other largish group.

> Like you said, HAMAS exists solely for the sake of resisting Jewish occupation [0], from the river to the sea, which also means the extermination of Israel and Jews [1].

Quite a jump.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#909
post #906

What is the guidance regarding commenters who are obvious trolls, propagandists and bad faith actors? Being kind to them is completely wasted effort. Replying to them is also wasted effort as they won't be persuaded. However leaving bullshit unchallenged might make trusting bystanders believe that this is actually the truth.

Polite factual refutation probably works.

yea I tried that. I posted links to all my sources as well as opinions from credible human rights organizations. they just play the game of being obtuse to the very end and then gaslight you about needing to backup my opinions as if there weren't at least 2-3 inks for every assertion I make.

one side of this debate is very much NOT acting in good faith because they rely on the status quo being maintained to continue what they are doing

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#910
post #333
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi there, I personally admire the work you do, I fully support Israel in it's war against evil, I hope you eradicate Hamas (ideally they would all surrender, but that's unlikely, so the other option is they get killed) as soon as you can. If you doubt any of these words, check out my tweets/likes (@tomprimozic) However, there's 3 "contentious" points that I want to ask (my go-to Jewish (& very pro-Israel) close frien…

Thank you for the kind words. Will reach out when I get home next. Been a long day - we did a big mission today and I'm wiped so please excuse the short answers. 1. Hamas was located in a significant want under Al-shifa. Israel released video of our commando unit raiding it. You can find that video online. Hard to watch. 2. Because they're angry and they're being stupid and reacting emotionally. Please understand, th…

>> Hamas was located in a significant want under Al-shifa. Israel released video of our commando unit raiding it. You can find that video online. Hard to watch.

I can't find that video online. I can find a video that shows a tunnel, allegedly under Al Shifa, and ending in a blast door.

IDF publishes footage of what it says is Hamas tunnel at al-Shifa hospital

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/19/idf-israel-arm...

I cannot find any "hard to watch" video of "commando units raiding" the tunnel. Do you have a direct link to such a video?

Note that the claim was not that there was a "significant [ward?]" under the Al-Shifa hospital. The claim was that Hamas had its headquarters under Al-Shifa.

For example, this claim was made by Isaac Herzog, the President of Israel, in an interview with Laura Kuenssberg of the BBC, where Isaac Herzog claimed IDF is not actually attacking Al-Shifa:

[my transcript]: Undrerneath Shifa there is a huge huge terror base, actually the headquarters, the headquarters of Hamas Isis operations is right there under Shifa.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67397963?at_med...

So far, no such "yuge yuge terror base" has been found under Al-Shifa, or under any of the other hospitals targeted by the IDF.

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