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iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

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Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#111

Post by RoyalHenOil »

spiderice wrote: post #100
RoyalHenOil wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought an iPad and an Apple Pencil for drawing. If I could have bought the same hardware with the same functionality, but not Apple, I absolutely would have. It's not because I hate Apple products (I happily use Macintoshes), but because the system is too closed. I overwhelmingly prefer Android, Microsoft, and macOS to iPadOS -- primarily because I can get a browser I like on them, but not on my iPad. If I didn't u…

You forgot the final line of your argument: “…so we should use the government to force people to build that product I just dreamt up, rather than the one they want to build.”

I don't live in the EU or have any connection to the EU, and I am not positioned to have any strong opinion of the laws or court cases there.

My argument was against the person above claiming that an open platform makes for a worse product, and that European iPad users would get an inferior experience. I disagree.

Let's not forget that Apple invented the smart phone, but then they lost their dominance over the smart phone market. It seems to me that consumers like open platforms.

I don't think there should be laws forcing closed platforms to be open, given a competitive marketplace where people have a choice. I think most people will choose open platforms in a free market, but it is good that closed platforms exist for people who prefer them. That is one of the benefits of competition.

I do think anti-monopoly laws are necessary for maintaining this competition. However, I don't know enough details of this case to know whether I agree with this specific ruling. I do think the EU can be very heavy handed without sufficiently considering the implications. But that's their business, I guess.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#112

Post by RoyalHenOil »

hayst4ck wrote: post #103
HumblyTossed wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird. How would it? You don’t have to buy anything except from the Apple Store if you don’t want to.

Imagine if Apple tried to implement privacy labels in a multi app store world. Rather than complying with an action that benefits the consumer, Google and Facebook could work together to create an app store that doesn't require privacy labels and then only publish GMail and WhatsApp/FBMessenger to their app store , forcing me to download and use their app store or not use my e-mail or standard means of communicating…

>and then only publish GMail and WhatsApp/FBMessenger to their app store

This is clearly anti-competitive behavior. It is equally bad whether it's Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, or anyone else doing it.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#113

Post by extraduder_ire »

RoyalHenOil wrote: post #94
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a worse experience? I mean android phones and tablets are already something you can buy, people still buy Apple products despite that. > It's not my intention to poison the well, but Apple feels like treating its customers like cattle A lot of remember how the computing world was before, the Wild West that the EU is trying to make the only option. We aren’t eager to return to that, and would make different platfor…

I bought an iPad and an Apple Pencil for drawing. If I could have bought the same hardware with the same functionality, but not Apple, I absolutely would have. It's not because I hate Apple products (I happily use Macintoshes), but because the system is too closed. I overwhelmingly prefer Android, Microsoft, and macOS to iPadOS -- primarily because I can get a browser I like on them, but not on my iPad. If I didn't u…

I hope you bought a generic "pencil" at least. There's knockoffs to be had for I or someone needs to get around to reverse engineering the digitizer's stylus support, since ipad6 digitizer glass can be bought for ~$11 last I checked, and all-in that's pretty competitive with regular drawing tablets even if you include the rpi nano used to drive the thing.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#114

Post by extraduder_ire »

kmeisthax wrote: post #40

Note that if you opt for the EU compliant new business terms for iPhone, you will still be obligated to pay Core Technology Fees on all Apple platforms, even if those platforms do not allow sideloading. So your iPad apps now have install fees and you still have to pass app review.

That's strange. I thought that the iPadOS appstore was one of apple's five completely separate appstores. /s

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#115

Post by yinyang_in »

Apple did lot of efforts building the ecosystem. No government system helped them in it. Now fruits have come up & they want to tweak it to their own taste.

If monopoly is causing trouble to small businesses & you’re able to prove it then impose fines & whatever is under the law. But just being jealous & imposition of laws just to target businesses(here almost Apple is being singled out).

But this is unpopular opinion.

With 30% fees you get access to big ecosystem of Apple imo is cheap. They’ve put lot of efforts in building it. If don’t want to participate, then don’t. Use android it has what you all what EU wants.

Ps. Not a US citizen neither stakeholder in Apple

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#116

Post by xigoi »

floydnoel wrote: post #66
JoshTriplett wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if that turns out to be the case, then it doesn't need to be enforced, as people will select accordingly. And then, the people who do want to run things that Apple won't permit in the app store (browsers/emulators/JITs/scripting/etc), or that aren't economically viable with a 30% cut, will have the option of doing so. The existence of an option does not force you to choose that option.

until there's another pandemic, and your local government decides everyone has to install their tracking app. or any number of situations where users will be pressured by institutions they don’t have any control over.

So instead you want your government to pay money to a (possibly foreign) company just to be able to publish an app?

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#117

Post by techdragon »

yinyang_in wrote: post #115

Apple did lot of efforts building the ecosystem. No government system helped them in it. Now fruits have come up & they want to tweak it to their own taste. If monopoly is causing trouble to small businesses & you’re able to prove it then impose fines & whatever is under the law. But just being jealous & imposition of laws just to target businesses(here almost Apple is being singled out). But this is unpopular opinio…

You may not be an Apple shareholder and I’m not sure how being a US Citizen has any potential to be a conflict of interest in this case but you still sound like you “drank the cool aid”… the question I have for you is where (if anywhere at all) do you draw the line between what Apple should be allowed to do and and what it should do voluntarily … and what rights you think individual nations have to regulate their internal commerce including regulations on what manufacturers and sellers of devices must make it possible for the purchasing public to do…

while this regulation is targeting Apple’s software control the same principles are underlying the regulations that allow bilingual countries to require products be labeled in both languages, allow countries to mandate hygiene in health care facilities, higher food safety or ingredient quality control to minimise food contamination risks…

Does Unilever have the right to decide what’s good enough for consumers in a country? Or does the country and its citizens have the right to demand Unilever products meet their standards if Unilever wants to sell in that country?

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#118

Post by pbh101 »

tomxor wrote: post #55
jachee wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a U.S. resident who’s eyeballs deep in the ecosystem… (well, I will be, come Friday…) and I feel much more valued by Apple than cattle. If there’s a future where there’s an app that requires me to install their store on my device to have the privilege of buying their app, I’m simply not buying that app. I’m pretty sure I’m not alone in that.

> a future where there’s an app that requires me to install their store [...] I’m simply not buying that app. Why is it so hard to understand that market pressure will affect you indirectly. Monopolies are harmful to even those who will never step outside Apple's walled garden... The mere threat from the EU, and anti-trust hearings in the US has already benefitted you by reducing the commission from 30% to 17% for ap…

This applies in the other direction too: in this DMA world, at some point perhaps an app I will want will only be available in Meta’s Store and I’ll have to either accept their (maybe ickier) terms or forgo the app, whereas without the DMA I’d have the option to download from Apple’s Store.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#119

Post by caslon »

xigoi wrote: post #116
floydnoel wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

until there's another pandemic, and your local government decides everyone has to install their tracking app. or any number of situations where users will be pressured by institutions they don’t have any control over.

So instead you want your government to pay money to a (possibly foreign) company just to be able to publish an app?

Historically, Apple has demonstrated more trustworthiness and greater morality than the United States Government, when direct comparison has been available.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d...

Even recently, the EU has been pushing for less safety for users.

https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/09/eu_casm_expert_identi...

More generally, your argument doesn't really hold up. Apple's never owned slaves. Apple's never killed coal miners. Apple's never put humans into concentration camps. The United States Government has done all of these things. Why should anyone trust it?

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#120

Post by dwaite »

tomxor wrote: post #55
jachee wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a U.S. resident who’s eyeballs deep in the ecosystem… (well, I will be, come Friday…) and I feel much more valued by Apple than cattle. If there’s a future where there’s an app that requires me to install their store on my device to have the privilege of buying their app, I’m simply not buying that app. I’m pretty sure I’m not alone in that.

> a future where there’s an app that requires me to install their store [...] I’m simply not buying that app. Why is it so hard to understand that market pressure will affect you indirectly. Monopolies are harmful to even those who will never step outside Apple's walled garden... The mere threat from the EU, and anti-trust hearings in the US has already benefitted you by reducing the commission from 30% to 17% for ap…

> The mere threat from the EU, and anti-trust hearings in the US has already benefitted you by reducing the commission from 30% to 17% for apps with revenue under $1M.

The old terms had it at 15% (small business program).

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