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iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

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Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#81

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jchw wrote: post #78
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know it will because we remember what life was like before. Sucky platforms that were never good enough, always some weird piece of software that you thought was benign gunking up your system. It really did suck. And then…most of the problems were gone and things just worked. I’m ok if this is actually all optional, but I don’t think the anti-Apple crowd is going to be content until iOS is just another Windows. Th…

Yeah see, where I don't see eye-to-eye on here is the idea that Windows is bad because it lets you download and run whatever you want. I don't agree at all. I think Windows is just bad, and in fact, it gets worse as they try to push for an Apple-esque App Store model and slowly add roadblocks to """side-loading""" (or as we called it in my youth, "installing software".) Likewise, I don't think that's what makes iOS g…

I can go out and buy a windows machine if I want. Or a windows mobile phone back in the day, or an android phone today. There are so many alternatives to Apple products that if I wanted that kind of platform, it already exists and can be chosen! For Android…in China the play store basically doesn’t even exist, so phones with non-play stores aren’t rare at all.

So you basically want to force your preferences on me, and that really just annoys me. You don’t have to buy an iPhone or an iPad for yourself, you have other choices that better suit your needs, so leave my preferences alone please. I don’t like being told what I have to buy.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#83

Post by CamperBob2 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #81
jchw wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah see, where I don't see eye-to-eye on here is the idea that Windows is bad because it lets you download and run whatever you want. I don't agree at all. I think Windows is just bad, and in fact, it gets worse as they try to push for an Apple-esque App Store model and slowly add roadblocks to """side-loading""" (or as we called it in my youth, "installing software".) Likewise, I don't think that's what makes iOS g…

I can go out and buy a windows machine if I want. Or a windows mobile phone back in the day, or an android phone today. There are so many alternatives to Apple products that if I wanted that kind of platform, it already exists and can be chosen! For Android…in China the play store basically doesn’t even exist, so phones with non-play stores aren’t rare at all. So you basically want to force your preferences on me, an…

I'm missing the part where someone is forcing you to install non-sanctioned apps. If Apple is adding all the value you say they are, what do they (and you) have to lose?

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#84

Post by bdcravens »

ivanmontillam wrote: post #32
mrtksn wrote: post #20

For anyone interested, EU has started an investigation on iPadOS despite not meeting the threshold: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_... The investigation should be completed within 12 months.

The funny thing is that Europeans will eventually have a better experience with Apple than U.S. residents. It's not my intention to poison the well, but Apple feels like treating its customers like cattle.

Choice is good, though I can't help but wonder what % of European customers will start getting their applications from third-parties. In 12 or so years of on-again, off-again usage of Android (usually as a secondary phone), I've sideloaded one app: a pre-release game that I happily pulled down from the official channel once it went "official"

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#85

Post by jchw »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #81
jchw wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah see, where I don't see eye-to-eye on here is the idea that Windows is bad because it lets you download and run whatever you want. I don't agree at all. I think Windows is just bad, and in fact, it gets worse as they try to push for an Apple-esque App Store model and slowly add roadblocks to """side-loading""" (or as we called it in my youth, "installing software".) Likewise, I don't think that's what makes iOS g…

I can go out and buy a windows machine if I want. Or a windows mobile phone back in the day, or an android phone today. There are so many alternatives to Apple products that if I wanted that kind of platform, it already exists and can be chosen! For Android…in China the play store basically doesn’t even exist, so phones with non-play stores aren’t rare at all. So you basically want to force your preferences on me, an…

I just want to know: What choice do you think I'm trying to force on you? This argument only works if you force this into an us-vs-them dichotomy, but I'm an Apple customer that owns multiple Apple products, so this thing where some outgroup is trying to piss on Apple's parade is a delusion. But even ignoring that, do you think I'm trying to force Apple to force you to install Firefox? Because I'm not, and I'd love to hear what it is you think anyone wants to force you personally to install.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#86

Post by Tijdreiziger »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #81
jchw wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah see, where I don't see eye-to-eye on here is the idea that Windows is bad because it lets you download and run whatever you want. I don't agree at all. I think Windows is just bad, and in fact, it gets worse as they try to push for an Apple-esque App Store model and slowly add roadblocks to """side-loading""" (or as we called it in my youth, "installing software".) Likewise, I don't think that's what makes iOS g…

I can go out and buy a windows machine if I want. Or a windows mobile phone back in the day, or an android phone today. There are so many alternatives to Apple products that if I wanted that kind of platform, it already exists and can be chosen! For Android…in China the play store basically doesn’t even exist, so phones with non-play stores aren’t rare at all. So you basically want to force your preferences on me, an…

> I can go out and buy a windows machine if I want. Or a windows mobile phone back in the day, or an android phone today.

A duopoly does not a free market make.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#87

Post by Tijdreiziger »

floydnoel wrote: post #66
JoshTriplett wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if that turns out to be the case, then it doesn't need to be enforced, as people will select accordingly. And then, the people who do want to run things that Apple won't permit in the app store (browsers/emulators/JITs/scripting/etc), or that aren't economically viable with a 30% cut, will have the option of doing so. The existence of an option does not force you to choose that option.

until there's another pandemic, and your local government decides everyone has to install their tracking app. or any number of situations where users will be pressured by institutions they don’t have any control over.

Android proves the contrary here. How many government apps are even available outside the Play Store?

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#88

Post by rezonant »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #62
ivanmontillam wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is that Europeans will eventually have a better experience with Apple than U.S. residents. It's not my intention to poison the well, but Apple feels like treating its customers like cattle.

Or a worse experience? I mean android phones and tablets are already something you can buy, people still buy Apple products despite that. > It's not my intention to poison the well, but Apple feels like treating its customers like cattle A lot of remember how the computing world was before, the Wild West that the EU is trying to make the only option. We aren’t eager to return to that, and would make different platfor…

MacOS works exactly like what you are purporting to be undesirable, but I bet you have a Mac, and I bet your experience is none the worse for Apple's wild west policies on it.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#89

Post by Tijdreiziger »

makeitdouble wrote: post #53
rezonant wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As sibling points out, it's about what the EU thinks. "iPadOS" runs iOS apps, and iOS apps can be full fledged "iPadOS" apps with a single binary. The distinction is a business distinction, not a technical one. There are strange tiny differences in what APIs are offered, but the same is true of two Windows computers, for example, for one that has a DirectX capable graphics card and one that does not.

I had the same reaction at first. It looks like and probably is an obvious tactic to evade the DMA. But then, if we look at Debian and Ubuntu for instance, we'd agree they're different even if there will be compatibility. I think Apple should be allowed to set each of their stores and OSes as separate but compatible entities. And I also think scrutiny should be applied not on an OS base but on a more generic "platfor…

Regardless of whether iOS and iPadOS are the same OS, I think it is substantially the case that they operate in different markets (smartphone market vs. tablet market).

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#90

Post by rezonant »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #73
jchw wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason iPad is good is not because you're not allowed to choose what browser engine to use. It's, largely, because the hardware is simply better than anything else on the market. I think it is amusing that there is a contingent of Apple fans that actually believe the platform will get significantly worse because people are allowed to sideload and install browsers that have their own browser engines. I think this…

We know it will because we remember what life was like before. Sucky platforms that were never good enough, always some weird piece of software that you thought was benign gunking up your system. It really did suck. And then…most of the problems were gone and things just worked. I’m ok if this is actually all optional, but I don’t think the anti-Apple crowd is going to be content until iOS is just another Windows. Th…

> Sucky platforms that were never good enough, always some weird piece of software that you thought was benign gunking up your system.

This is a category error. Your iPhone isn't more stable because Apple charges a premium to developers so that they can invite you to use their apps, it's more stable because of all of the good decisions they make technically around the platform.

Your iPhone isn't more stable because Apple refuses to allow competition to their apps. Just like you mentioned elsewhere, if you don't want third party apps, do not install them. Please do not come for my freedom to run the apps I please. Don't piss on me and call it rain.

Your Mac is also a very nice experience, but Apple isn't gouging and restricting the developers of your favorite Mac apps (much), so no one is complaining about MacOS.

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