Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

apnews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

641–650 of 1001 posts

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#641

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

hayst4ck wrote: post #603
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle How many wars have the US and Japan fought after WWII? Or France and Germany after WWII? How many wars have the US Government and Native Americans fought after 1900? Sometimes a clear, overwhelming victory ends cycles of violence.

No. The fundamental flaw in this reasoning is the assumption that overwhelming victory is what established the current world order. Rebuilding Europe via the Marshall plan, which involved humanization of individuals who fought on behalf of evil, is why there is peace in Europe. Likewise, the US reconstruction of Japan is why the US and Japan are at peace. The US held the position of power and chose not to exercise it…

But overwhelming victory and unconditional surrender were the foundations for that reconstruction. There is really no way that peace could have been achieved with WWII Germany and Japan through giving money or diplomacy (Neville Chamberlain says hi). Once there was overwhelming victory resulting in unconditional surrender, then the rebuilding process started.

EDIT:

In addition, there was no equivalent of the Marshall Plan between the Soviet Union and East Germany, yet there were not wars between them after WWII.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#642

Post by alexisread »

golergka wrote: post #578
smoothjazz wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I'm not trying to mis-read the verdict which is why I asked the question. I think all of Israel's strategies to date include the death of Palestinians. Since that's explicitly forbidden with that ruling, how will they continue to fight? Will they just ignore the ruling or change tactics?

[flagged]

Generally the proportion of civilians in a hospital vastly outweighs any fighters. Bombing a hospital does in no way count as reasonable steps to prevent collateral damage. Shooting people queueing for food aid similarly does not count.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#643

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

slibhb wrote: post #607
munk-a wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the point, at least how I'm reading it. Between the US and Japan peace and diplomacy was allowed to rule instead of constant violent retaliation. With France and Germany the same - the two countries have, in a pretty meaningful way, simply merged into a single country along with a lot of the rest of Europe. When it comes to the US Government and Native Americans it's a far less good example - there hav…

> That's exactly the point, at least how I'm reading it. Between the US and Japan peace and diplomacy was allowed to rule instead of constant violent retaliation. What diplomacy? The US destroyed Japan's military, bombed Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki (the latter two with nuclear weapons), killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. The Japanese surrendered unconditionally. Then the US occupied Japan while directing…

> I don't see any diplomacy there.

Agree. The diplomacy that mattered happened aboard the USS Missouri with Japan's unconditional surrender.

Prior to that was a campaign of utter destruction. 80,000 people died in the firebombing of Tokyo alone.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#644

Post by smoothjazz »

golergka wrote: post #578
smoothjazz wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I'm not trying to mis-read the verdict which is why I asked the question. I think all of Israel's strategies to date include the death of Palestinians. Since that's explicitly forbidden with that ruling, how will they continue to fight? Will they just ignore the ruling or change tactics?

[flagged]

I don't believe this and the court found reason to further investigate genocide. The statements from Israeli leadership alone contradict what you're saying.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#645

Post by mvdtnz »

locallost wrote: post #466

My views on the situation aside, the clearest I saw anyone communicate the issues from a global angle was the former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin Translated here: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246 Viewed from the angle of the West, I think the message it needs to avoid isolating itself from the world is very unusual for Western media and important. Quote: "Westerners must ope…

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#646

Post by CapricornNoble »

Beefin wrote: post #390
The_Colonel wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is the security issue of a Palestinian population that has held since 1948 that they are still at war with Israel, will never accept a Jewish state in the region Will Israelis accept a sovereign Palestinian state in the region? A clear NO. Even the 1990s / 2000s two-state solutions were never meant from Israeli side as recognizing full sovereignty of Palestine - it was meant to be more like an Israeli protectorate…

[flagged]

> you want a terrorist nation having a full functioning military and access to nuclear weapons? really?

we already have several: US, Russia, China....and Israel.

https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2022/01/20/the-murde...

Murder/attempted murder of adversary citizens in neutral territory is just one of a legion of examples of behavior the West constantly criticizes Russia for, by the way.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#647

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

svara wrote: post #573
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle How many wars have the US and Japan fought after WWII? Or France and Germany after WWII? How many wars have the US Government and Native Americans fought after 1900? Sometimes a clear, overwhelming victory ends cycles of violence.

That France and Germany are now good neighbors is a miracle. It's possible because wise humans on both sides realized that the law of retaliation would cause a never ending cycle. I worry that this sort of wisdom might be in short supply these days.

> That France and Germany are now good neighbors is a miracle.

It was not because of wise humans as if humans suddenly learned wisdom. It was because they both realized instead of being empires acquiring territory, they had instead been turned into players between the US and the Soviet Union who were both much stronger than either of them and that war would end up completely devastating both of them without any benefits.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#648

Post by mvdtnz »

saiya-jin wrote: post #614
locallost wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician. But for me it's important to keep in mind what he is saying here and also in another part explicitly: a diplomatic solution is possible and history proves that. So what I can do is reject the notion that what is happening is unavoidable.

Well, the alternative to diplomatic solution is total annihilation of palestinians in west bank, be it by forcing them off the land which is impossible since they have nowhere to run and other islamic states refuse them (so much for inter-muslim brotherhood, I guess Iran should take them), or murdering them one by one which seems to be going on now. Or what we had till now, which led to what we have now. It doesnt ma…

The Palestinian people can oust Hamas, reject Islamic extremism without exception and reform their society to be compatible with a peaceful relationship with their neighbours.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#649

Post by krainboltgreene »

locallost wrote: post #537
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician. But for me it's important to keep in mind what he is saying here and also in another part explicitly: a diplomatic solution is possible and history proves that. So what I can do is reject the notion that what is happening is unavoidable.

> If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician

The solution is simple, avoiding the solution in order to create a western military power ally in the middle east is what high ranked politicians do.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#650

Post by bitcurious »

nojvek wrote: post #637
mderazon wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is looking at the conflict from western eyes. Religious fundamentalists don't think like that

We could have said this about Germany and Japan after WWII. Every human no matter their race and religion cares about having food, water, safety, opportunity, live in a law abiding society where their rights are respected and they get “some” choice to vote for their future.

Germany and Japan were conquered and unconditionally surrendered, after massive civilian casualties. Nazis were tried and executed. If Israel is should model itself on those examples, it's doing the right and moral thing in waging war until Hamas is destroyed, or unconditionally surrenders.
Post reply on HN