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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#621

Post by throwaway421967 »

ajb wrote: post #36

The actual rulings can be found at https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... and a summary is: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Dissents etc can be found in the case page: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 - in particular the opinion of Judge Aharon Barak, the Israeli ad-hoc Judge (a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have m…

Since the comment that I replied to was flagged, I'm posting this here because it is simply a statement of facts.

- Judge Barak's numbers on civilian deaths on 7th october are simply wrong and could've been easily checked. 766 civilians were killed, 1200 was the total number of deaths (including armed forces).

- Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% in the Gaza offensive.

- 766 / 1200 = 63.8%

- 63.8% and 66% are indeed close numbers, don't see why would it be flagged.

Of course, the numbers claimed by other NGOs / UN make it worse. But Israel's numbers are sufficient to make that claim.

[1] - https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-m...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#622

Post by throwwar »

anon84873628 wrote: post #585
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#623

Post by ajross »

pgeorgi wrote: post #474
locallost wrote: post #466

My views on the situation aside, the clearest I saw anyone communicate the issues from a global angle was the former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin Translated here: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246 Viewed from the angle of the West, I think the message it needs to avoid isolating itself from the world is very unusual for Western media and important. Quote: "Westerners must ope…

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

> All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then?

It remains a mess, but less of a mess? Look, it's all bad guys running the show in that hell hole of a desert. There are no trusted entities anywhere able to run a government that isn't somewhere between actively antagonistic and actively genocidal toward half the local population.

Nonetheless a status quo with less shooting and death is better than a status quo with more. Hamas killed fewer people than Israel did/is, so... yeah, I guess. An occasional October 7th is a better choice than levelling Gaza is. Incrementally. But none of this is going to get better, likely within our lifetimes.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#624

Post by mrkeen »

zogrodea wrote: post #468
aaomidi wrote: post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

I’m not a fan of Trump’s domestic policies, but I’m absolutely sure that he has the moral high-ground over Biden right now. Trump used to be a supporter of Israel and to some extent still is, but he did during his presidency see that the Palestinians want peace more than the other side. I can’t imagine Trump going behind Congress’ back to arm Israel as Biden has done. https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-i-thought-isr…

> I can’t imagine Trump going behind Congress’ back to arm Israel as Biden has done.

I absolutely 100% can imagine it. I would go so far as to characterise him as:

1) Pro-Israel:

> On December 6, 2017, the United States of America officially recognized Jerusalem as the capital city of the State of Israel. American president Donald Trump, who signed the presidential proclamation, also ordered the relocation of the American diplomatic mission to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv [...]. Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu welcomed the decision and praised the announcement by the Trump administration.

> Trump's decision was rejected by the vast majority of world leaders; the United Nations Security Council held an emergency meeting on December 7, where 14 out of 15 members condemned it, but the motion was overturned by U.S. veto power.

2) Non-cooperative with Congress:

> The United States federal government shutdown from midnight EST on December 22, 2018, until January 25, 2019 (35 days) was the longest government shutdown in history.

> The shutdown stemmed from an impasse over Trump's demand for $5.7 billion in federal funds for a U.S.–Mexico border wall.

3) Loving to go behind backs:

> Trump reportedly keeps finding a way to meet the Russian leader privately.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_recognition_of_J...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_United_State...

[3] https://www.vox.com/2019/1/29/18202515/trump-putin-russia-g2...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#625

Post by dang »

ken47 wrote: post #611

I wish politics articles wouldn't make it to the top page of Hacker News. There's already enough political discussion in a million other places.

Yes, and we won't let HN turn into a current affairs site, but this site has always had a certain amount of political content, and that's why this particular thread is happening. For more information, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39146184 and the links there.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#626

Post by HDThoreaun »

voisin wrote: post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

Millenia of oppression have taught the jewish people that the only way to be treated with respect is through military strength. Theyre applying that lesson here.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#627

Post by [deleted] »

pgeorgi wrote: post #616
anon84873628 wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#628

Post by mderazon »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #605
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

Yes, that is exactly what Israel should do. The "dont let gazans interact with Israelis" strategy was icnredibly effective until Israel got soft on border security. Israel easily is capable of ensuring no Gazans ever escape again. The iron dome is largely succesful at keeping Israelis safe, certainly more so than a long term gazan invasion which would open up the Israelis in gaza to terrorist attacks.

I think you have a slight misconception about living under Iron Dome.

It's not 100% effective and you still have to run to the nearest shelter. In some areas close to Gaza, you have less than 10 seconds to run to the shelter.

So I wouldn't consider that "normal life" by any standards

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#629

Post by lolinder »

romwell wrote: post #525
lolinder wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany and Japan's peaceful modern history are less due to a clear, overwhelming victory than they were due to the recognition of an absolutely horrific chapter in their country's respective histories and a major cultural movement against the possibility of those kinds of atrocities happening again. Either country could easily come up with more than enough military might to win a war if they chose, but the horrors t…

>due to the recognition of an absolutely horrific chapter You mean, the absolutely horrific military defeat.

No, I mean the slaughter of millions of innocent civilians.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#630

Post by mderazon »

anon84873628 wrote: post #585
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

This is looking at the conflict from western eyes. Religious fundamentalists don't think like that
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