Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

apnews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

551–560 of 1001 posts

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#551

Post by locallost »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #479
locallost wrote: post #466

My views on the situation aside, the clearest I saw anyone communicate the issues from a global angle was the former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin Translated here: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246 Viewed from the angle of the West, I think the message it needs to avoid isolating itself from the world is very unusual for Western media and important. Quote: "Westerners must ope…

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle How many wars have the US and Japan fought after WWII? Or France and Germany after WWII? How many wars have the US Government and Native Americans fought after 1900? Sometimes a clear, overwhelming victory ends cycles of violence.

The US has fought many wars since WW2 and has basically failed to win any of them. Again from the interview:

The second thing is a targeted response. Let's define realistic political objectives. And the third thing is a combined response. Because there is no effective use of force without a political strategy. We are not in 1973 or in 1967. There are things no army in the world knows how to do, which is to win in an asymmetrical battle against terrorists. The war on terror has never been won anywhere. And it instead triggers extremely dramatic misdeeds, cycles, and escalations. If America lost in Afghanistan, if America lost in Iraq, if we lost in the Sahel, it's because it's a battle that can't be won simply, it's not like you have a hammer that strikes a nail and the problem is solved. So we need to mobilize the international community, get out of this Western entrapment in which we are.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#552

Post by munk-a »

SomeoneFromCA wrote: post #307
bawolff wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > The court ruled that Israel must do all it can to prevent genocide, including refraining from killing Palestinians or causing harm to them > Sounds like a ceasefire to me. How else would they do this? Definitely not with any of the military tactics Israel is currently using. Reading the actual icj ruling it seems like it only forbid it when done with genocidial intent. The court did not forbid collateral damage.…

The ruling is so politically ambiguous, so israel will probably be digesting it for awhile. Perhaps lowering the military activities.

I agree the ruling is politically ambiguous like pretty much all things political - but it does pretty clearly signal that the international community has soured on the IDF's actions. This feels like a great opportunity for the Isreali government to say "Oh, my bad" and start serious de-escalation issues while losing less face because they're complying with "genuine humanitarian concerns".

Diplomacy isn't about hard rules - the ICJ can't say "We impose a cease-fire" and demand that the GM of the world step in an immediately cease hostilities. Everything in diplomacy is about posturing and implications - it's why the US has managed to maintain the frankly insanely incoherent "Strategic Ambiguity" of trying to appease the PRC and Taiwan simultaneously, and it works - both countries are happy that the US winks after every statement about the PRC or Taiwan and gives local politicians room to favorably interpret the US statements to their base and reinforce that "Actually they're on our side".

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#554

Post by MeImCounting »

aaomidi wrote: post #321
shmatt wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm not sure what I will do, but I'm not voting for Trump either way. There is a lot written about civil disobedience through not partaking in electoral politics, and that's _likely_ the direction I'm going to go if Biden does not change his tone (and hopefully actually do a proper apology for his actions so far). This sucks, and I'll participate in local and even congressional elections, but for president I can not…

Personally regardless of any other stance I will always vote along the abortion lines. I would hope others would be able to prioritize that as well. I dont want to see the US turn into a theocratic dictatorship.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#555

Post by dragonwriter »

thsksbd wrote: post #527
dragonwriter wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ICJ punted. No, it didn't. It ruled on what amounts to (in the parlance of the US legal system) a preliminary injunction, ordering one because the pleadings and supporting evidence on initial review warrant it, while the process of a trial on the merits will take longer. > The ruling is a joke, how can you rule against the defendant and yet order the defendant to monitor themselves? The only people the ICJ can…

The ICJ could, however, order a ceasefire that is a freezing of the conflict. This process will take years that the Palestinians do not have.

> The ICJ could, however, order a ceasefire that is a freezing of the conflict.

It could, as it did against Russia in Ukraine v. Russia (2022). But note that in Ukraine v. Russia it specifically cited the resolution adopted by the General Assembly under Uniting for Peace addressing the Russia invasion as a violation of the UN Charter as a violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of another UN member, that is, it was addressing an operation already declared illegal independent of the issue before the Court.

Ordering a halt to an operation that otherwise might fall within the recognized UN Charter right if individual or collective self-defense is, especially when the allegedly aggressing party is not subject to the order, seems pretty hard to justify as a provisional measure.

(One might also note the absence of an effect of that order in Ukraine v. Russia.)

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#557

Post by JumpCrisscross »

zmgsabst wrote: post #461
megous wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ICJ disgraces itself condemning a nation not engaged in genocide on behalf of a nation that is. There's no condemnation in the text. It shows you didn't read the ICJ order.

[flagged]

> Opening a genocide trial is an implicit condemnation of their behavior

No? The condemnation was by South Africa, in submitting its application. The Court very deliberately did not condemn nor exonerate [1].

[1] https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#558

Post by mrkeen »

worik wrote: post #331
timcobb wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> South Africa asks ICC to exempt it from Putin arrest https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2YY1E6/ SA does not really present itself as an earnest or true actor in the sphere oh human rights.

True Nation states are often immoral and hypocritical The outrage from the USA at the invasion of Ukraine, when the invasion of Iraq is a crime of the same magnitude - both dreadful stains on humanity Most recently the international support for the actions of the IDF whilst condemning Russian actions in Ukraine SA is just normal in this regard

> The outrage from the USA at the invasion of Ukraine, when the invasion of Iraq is a crime of the same magnitude.

I was certainly against it in 2003. The WMDs were bullshit. A war on "terror" is farcical. The profiteering and the industrial military complex, etc.

But I did later come around to the idea of getting Saddam and his government to stop genociding the Kurds.

Of course you should always assume a country like the US to be self-serving in its actions, but it's not as if it was taking additional land as its own, as is the case with Russia and Israel. Iraq was never going to be the 51st state.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#560

Post by pphysch »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #495
hypeit wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel must face the reality that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land. There is no solution until that happens. Just like apartheid South Africa was dismantled, Israel has to face the same fate or forever be locked into warfare and oppressing Palestinians.

> that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land I’ve heard this line from people who say the West Bank and Gaza are the occupied land, to those who say all of Israel is occupied land. The former makes sense. The latter is extreme. > like apartheid South Africa was dismantled South Africa wasn’t as militarised as the Levant has become, unfortunately. As long as Iran seeks the destruction of Israel, itself an…

Anyone can go on Google Earth, look at the official UN borders of Israel, then do a search in Hebrew or "synagogue" (obviously not every synagogue is Israeli) or "checkpoint" and very clearly see the Israeli settlements outside Israel's legal borders. Search "Hizma" for a good example [1].

To make it even more obvious, toggle the "street view" layer over one of these areas and see what gets highlighted.

There is a clear apartness between the neatly-planned Israeli settlements, often built on demolished Palestinian villages, and the organic scattering of indigenous, primarily Arab Palestinian villages. With militarized checkpoints in between. Anyone can see it, if they have the will and a web browser.

[1] - https://earth.google.com/web/search/Hizma+checkpoint,+Sderot...

Post reply on HN