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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#171
post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

I was in my 20s and remember the feeling in the air after Al Qaeda members hijacked commercial planes and flew them into WTC in 2001. Fear, Anger, A bit of revenge. Many of Americans, including soviet immigrants, enlisted in the army driven by that feeling. Israelis lost significantly more of their population percentage-wise during October 7 attack perpetrated by the official government of Gaza AND as we know now, so…

A bit of a strange take considering every one of your points applies much more to Palestine than Israel.

>I was in my 20s and remember the feeling in the air after Al Qaeda members hijacked commercial planes and flew them into WTC in 2001. Fear, Anger, A bit of revenge

Yeah the people in Gaza feel that pretty much every day

>Many of Americans, including soviet immigrants, enlisted in the army driven by that feeling.

They also feel this, which leads to them joining Hamas and is part of the reason there are normal Palestinians who support Hamas. Terrorists don't come out of no where.

>Israelis lost significantly more of their population percentage-wise during October 7 attack perpetrated by the official government of Gaza AND as we know now, some Gazan civilians.

Yeah I mean again just flip that and the people in Gaza experience that at a much higher rate

>With that in mind, its fairly simple for me to empathize with the Israeli public who are angry at the death of their fellow citizens and want Hamas to be punished.

Same but I also empathize with all the Palestinians just trying to live their lives in an open air prison and want revenge. I think both Hamas and Israel have genocidal intent, but one has much more power and is actually carrying it out right now.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#172
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which other international conflicts has China resolved? The current Chinese state seems to be much better at fostering conflict (I.e. the ongoing Korean War) than resolving it.

So far, not much. Gaza is a good place to start. China wants more influence in the Middle East, and already owns or operates a large number of ports outside China.[1] Israel blockades the existing ports of Gaza. A China-run port in Gaza, protected by the PLAN, is a possibility. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/china-...

That assumes that Israel would allow a China-run port in Gaza, which is no guarantee.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#173
post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

The US, under whichever administration, is in a very difficult position here. If the US stops all support immediately, this could be the end of Israel. Would that be just? I see a president carefully dancing on the thin line of supporting the Israel state while using the US leverage to stop the war (latest example: sending the CIA chief to the negotiating table). But this needs to be done without enabling Israel's biggest adversaries that support a Jihad against the people of Israel.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#175
post #98

There is another player. China is interested in resolving the Gaza conflict.[1] China's position is that, since the existing world order, the International Court of Justice and the United States, can't resolve this, China should become involved. Chinese container shipping lines COSCO and OOCL have suspended trade with Israel. China has already provided some aid to Gaza.[2] Gaza has a sizable coastline, and China has…

> Gaza has a sizable coastline, and China has a large number of amphibious assault ships available. They can defend themselves against Israel air attacks. Chinese warships will never be allowed anywhere near the Mediterranean in the first place - if there is one thing that even the split US Congress will agree on, it is that China already has too much influence and that they need to be stopped. Additionally, China's…

> Chinese warships will never be allowed anywhere near the Mediterranean in the first place

There have been Chinese navy visits to the Mediterranean. You can sail in on international water. (Edit: Nope, it's to narrow)

"Chinese naval ships visit Morocco"

http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/CHINA_209163/Exchanges/News_20918...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#177
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems far fetched given China's traditional insistence that countries' internal affairs should not be subject to external overview, it's undeclared stance that subject populations should be suppressed by whatever means necessary and the still marginal effect of the conflict on its trade.

I don't see how military operations outside of a country's legal territory is considered an "internal affair"

I believe parent was referring to the Uyghur genocide[1] not the Territorial disputes in the South China Sea[2].

The line of thinking is that if Israel is subject to international courts/laws regarding genocide for its action, then China will be too. China's participation in judging Israel opens itself to the same judgement.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_So...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that system does not apply to 2 million Israeli Arabs (nearly all of whom self-identify as "Palestinian" from an ethnic/national perspective) of the exact same race as the Palestinians in the occupied territories. The overt driver of the system - and the one that is agreed to across the whole Jewish-Israeli population - is the security issue of a Palestinian population that has held since 1948 that…

Your claim that Israel does not use an apartheid system of control and discrimination is false https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-...

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#180
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I'm not trying to mis-read the verdict which is why I asked the question. I think all of Israel's strategies to date include the death of Palestinians. Since that's explicitly forbidden with that ruling, how will they continue to fight? Will they just ignore the ruling or change tactics?

The measures ordered by the UN court are in references to Article II of the Genocide Convention [0], which limits the scope to “ acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group ”, where the court identifies the group as “ Palestinians in Gaza ”. So it’s the intent of genocide towards that group which is the deciding factor. As long as the actions do not carr…

They will claim they are attempting to kill Hamas militants and any non-Hamas Palestinians deaths are incidental. You can do anything with this excuse. Did the court close this loophole?
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