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Groupon Plunges as Board Members Reportedly Leaving

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Re: Groupon Plunges as Board Members Reportedly Leaving

#61
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rumor has it that Google got a look at their books during the negotiation and cancelled the deal. They publicly gave the story of groupon denying Google to allow them to save face and attract more investors

That's very unnerving if it's true, because, by going along with "Groupon is worth $6bn because Google offered that to us and we turned it down" , implies Google had a hand in creating that extremely high perception before their IPO. If Google did infact have the chance to look at the books (which I'm sure they did), and then allow that "$6bn meme" to circulate -- well, that's evil isn't it?

I was not Google's job of sinking Groupon. It was also every investor's job to check the books before the IPO.

Re: Groupon Plunges as Board Members Reportedly Leaving

#62
post #57

Big fat I told you so (to anyone on HN I've predicted this to in the past)... Board Member/Director leaves... and what this signals: [1] Employees Confused. [2] Investors are going to really pissed off. [3] Stock is most likely going to continue to fall. (The signalling from this step down is huge). [4] It hints at possibility that the directors have had something to hide; something has been discovered; they have bee…

Time to short the stock?

About a month ago would've been better.

Re: Groupon Plunges as Board Members Reportedly Leaving

#63
post #57

Big fat I told you so (to anyone on HN I've predicted this to in the past)... Board Member/Director leaves... and what this signals: [1] Employees Confused. [2] Investors are going to really pissed off. [3] Stock is most likely going to continue to fall. (The signalling from this step down is huge). [4] It hints at possibility that the directors have had something to hide; something has been discovered; they have bee…

Time to short the stock?

No. Right now, with the bad news already coming out, the harm is increasingly priced into the stock price. The time to short was when they IPO'd and half of everyone saw this coming.

Normally I have a rule of "never short". Wish I'd broken it this time :-(.

Re: Groupon Plunges as Board Members Reportedly Leaving

#64
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very unnerving if it's true, because, by going along with "Groupon is worth $6bn because Google offered that to us and we turned it down" , implies Google had a hand in creating that extremely high perception before their IPO. If Google did infact have the chance to look at the books (which I'm sure they did), and then allow that "$6bn meme" to circulate -- well, that's evil isn't it?

I'd imagine in those negotiations there are agreements that everyone has to basically be tight lipped even after the deal falls apart. On the flip side, if Google had said too much it might make other business nervous to enter into negotiations with them in the future.

Someone wasn't so tight lipped that the word didn't get out that they offered $6 billion for the company.

If that wasn't true, someone in Google did have obligation to deny it - denying it off record with no further comment would hardly have been saying a lot.

Re: Groupon Plunges as Board Members Reportedly Leaving

#65
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rumor has it that Google got a look at their books during the negotiation and cancelled the deal. They publicly gave the story of groupon denying Google to allow them to save face and attract more investors

That's very unnerving if it's true, because, by going along with "Groupon is worth $6bn because Google offered that to us and we turned it down" , implies Google had a hand in creating that extremely high perception before their IPO. If Google did infact have the chance to look at the books (which I'm sure they did), and then allow that "$6bn meme" to circulate -- well, that's evil isn't it?

Just three letters for you: NDA.

To expand on that a bit: If google had made public what they thought they found they would have been very much open to a lawsuit with some significant chance of success.

Breaking an NDA in such a situation is unheard of, every investor is supposed to make up their own mind and do their own homework before they decide to invest or not.

Any legitimate concerns about this would revolve around the question of whether or not groupon was forthcoming in their pre-IPO filings. If there is any proof to be found with google you could try to persuade a judge to grant a subpoena of people at google familiar with the deal, but google should never by themselves reveal any of this.

So: no, not evil.

Re: Groupon Plunges as Board Members Reportedly Leaving

#66
post #3

Could this be the beginning of the end of Bubble 2.0? I understand this is just one company, but what I'm wondering is if this could have a domino effect.

such statement is a bit far fetched. imho GRPN is no real tech company, and investors (traditional asset managers) know this. on the other hand, if GRPN goes bust, the reputation of Accel, Andreessen Horowitz, Battery Ventures, DST and Kleiner Perkins, will be clearly damaged towards IPO investors.

If the last 5 years have taught us any lessons at all, it's that assuming traditional asset managers know anything--no matter how obvious--can get everyone in a terrible amount of trouble.

Assume, but verify.

Re: Groupon Plunges as Board Members Reportedly Leaving

#68

What I'm wondering: are any of Groupon's competitor's (AmazonLocal, LivingSocial, Google Offers, etc.) more likely to succeed? Or is the business model the biggest problem here?

I don't think the business model is quite as horrible as some make it out to be, but it certainly doesn't seem to warrant a $6+ billion valuation for Groupon and doesn't really bode well for some of its competitors. I see two major problems Groupon is facing:

1) Limited long-term market

A lot of companies have had negative or even disastrous results from using Groupon. It is clear that it isn't a good option for a lot of businesses, as it can be very costly and a lot of the customers don't return. I see two viable long-term markets for the sort of deals Groupon offers: 1) High-margin businesses where most of the expenses are related to advertising, and 2) brand new businesses with a big enough marketing budget to take a one-time hit to get their name out. This is still a pretty big potential market, but I don't think it is big enough.

2) Almost zero barrier to entry

Despite being called a "tech" company, Groupon appears to have very little interesting technology, and there is almost no barrier to becoming a competitor. More worrisome than the national competitors (ie, Google, Amazon, and LivingSocial) are the local competitors, such as TV stations, newspapers, universities, etc.. They already have established relationships with local businesses and almost certainly have lower sales costs, plus they often don't need the margins that Groupon does and can offer merchants better deals.

I see Groupon dying from fighting with a thousand other fish over a pond that is a lot smaller than originally thought. National competitors like Amazon and Google that can use other aspects of their business to lower acquisition costs and/or increase the revenue per deal might have a shot at doing well in the long term.

I can tell you one thing - as a Google shareholder, I'm really glad they ended up not spending $5 billion on Groupon.

Re: Groupon Plunges as Board Members Reportedly Leaving

#69
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to short the stock?

No. Right now, with the bad news already coming out, the harm is increasingly priced into the stock price. The time to short was when they IPO'd and half of everyone saw this coming. Normally I have a rule of "never short". Wish I'd broken it this time :-(.

It's always been virtually impossible to borrow the stock in order to short it; the float is small and the cost of borrow is extremely high.

Re: Groupon Plunges as Board Members Reportedly Leaving

#70

Big fat I told you so (to anyone on HN I've predicted this to in the past)... Board Member/Director leaves... and what this signals: [1] Employees Confused. [2] Investors are going to really pissed off. [3] Stock is most likely going to continue to fall. (The signalling from this step down is huge). [4] It hints at possibility that the directors have had something to hide; something has been discovered; they have bee…

anyone would want to invent a time machine for a cool $5 billion dollars?? because that much Andrew Mason would pay you to get back to the table split seconds before he said "no" to Google's "we will pay you $6 billions for your website".

Why would Andrew Mason pay $5billion when the company is still worth $6.83B today?

Giving away $5B to get the company's valuation to $6B would only make sense if Groupon were valued below $1B right now. (unless you're insinuating that in the near future, Groupon will be below this threshold, or even in bankruptcy)

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