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Free Godot engine port for Nintendo Switch

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Re: Free Godot engine port for Nintendo Switch

#211
post #158
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indie gamedev company co-founder here: 14 people team, 2 games released + next in progress and signed with publisher. There are few big reasons why you can't just go and use Godot. Publishers. Basically 3 years ago when we made our first game together using Godot it was main reason why we were rejected by some publishers. Now situation can be slightly different, but many publishers still have in-house pipeline that o…

Sounds really unfortunate. I also know little about this process, what do the publishers do that we cannot do ourselves? I guess they have pre existing deals with the major console makers that allows them to send things to market with little friction? Maybe that's why some indie devs just target PC, they lock themselves out of the console market but also don't have to deal with publishers?

First and most important publishers provide funding. To give an example here is a work you need to build a small game and you can imagine how much it costs:

- 1 project manager / year.

- 1 game designer / year.

- 1-2 programmer / year.

- 2-3 months month of sound design / music.

- 3-5 artists / year.

Even if you have a great multi-skill team you need at least 5-6 people for a 6-9-12 months and it's would be very much skeleton crew.

There are cases where team of 1-3 people working part-time without funding can build a great game, but it's require both sticking to specific genres and greater use of ready-to-use assets which means it must be 3D. Game that small indie company will build in 6 month will take 3-6 years with a team working part-time.

Indie devs who self publishing only target PC because commercial porting sertvices cost starting from $10,000-15,000 per platform and it's gonna be way more expensive if game wasnt optimized for gamepad and big screens from beginning. And it's just impractical to port it yourself because it will take many months to pass certifications since know-how for proprietary platforms is not available on stack overflow.

Re: Free Godot engine port for Nintendo Switch

#212
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank US 1983 crash for that. Gatekeeping is a way to avoid a minium level of quality, instead of a dumpster copy cat trash that inudates all the stores where there is no control. Want to learn how to do consoles? Get a toy handeld using ESP32 or Arduino.

There's quite notoriously no minimum level of _quality_ required to publish on the Switch store. Here are three identical low-quality Switch games from three different publishers: https://www.nintendo.com/us/store/products/word-chef-switch/ https://www.nintendo.com/us/store/products/chef-word-ardee-s... https://www.nintendo.com/us/store/products/eat-your-letters-... And here's the Unity asset that these games use alm…

Just because some garbage ends up on the store, doesn't mean all the garbage gets through like on the PC and Android.

Even club bouncers occasionally let the wrong folks get in.

OP's kid has plenty of other options to play with game development.

Re: Free Godot engine port for Nintendo Switch

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd recommend canceling your Mig Switch order. First and foremost, it financially supports some very sketchy players in the commercial piracy (under)world. Secondly, it won't let you play homebrew games - only officially signed nintendo software. Thirdly, you'll have to keep your console offline forever, if you plan to use it - you can bet Nintendo will start revoking cart certificates and banning consoles at the fir…

Buying a Switch in the first place supports some very sketchy players.

The console itself is practically a loss leader, it's buying the games that's sketchy :P

To clarify my overall stance, I am:

Broadly anti-nintendo (good games, sketchy company), extremely pro- modding and homebrew, mostly pro-piracy, but firmly against the commercialization of piracy.

Making things available for free is good, taking things just so you can profit from them yourself is bad - and that's how I see MigSwitch et al.

Re: Free Godot engine port for Nintendo Switch

#214
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank US 1983 crash for that. Gatekeeping is a way to avoid a minium level of quality, instead of a dumpster copy cat trash that inudates all the stores where there is no control. Want to learn how to do consoles? Get a toy handeld using ESP32 or Arduino.

There's quite notoriously no minimum level of _quality_ required to publish on the Switch store. Here are three identical low-quality Switch games from three different publishers: https://www.nintendo.com/us/store/products/word-chef-switch/ https://www.nintendo.com/us/store/products/chef-word-ardee-s... https://www.nintendo.com/us/store/products/eat-your-letters-... And here's the Unity asset that these games use alm…

> If OP's kid buys a Unity asset and publishes it directly to the eShop

I think the root case of the "kids can't write games for their peers" isn't Nintendo or anyone else. Both Apple and Switch are praised by the parents for their restricted platforms. You can give a kid both of them and be sure that that kid wouldn't install age-inappropriate apps or games. Self-made stuff needs to be moderated heavily or kids will share pornographic games (i mean they are kids. Who haven't tried to play at least one "age-inappropriate" game by the age of sixteen?).

In my humble opinion, Nintendo just don't want to do too much moderation, so they added hoops after hoops to jump through, until the amount of low-effort apps decreased enough for moderators to do their job thoroughly for every app.

> I think in her peer group the second most popular device after the iPhone is the Switch.

I would say that the inability of sharing anything self-made is why apple and switch are popular choice to buy for your kid. No need to talk about safety measures, if you lock them in a system.

So, IMHO, the conflict isn't between kid devs and nintendo, its between kid devs and their peers parents.

Re: Free Godot engine port for Nintendo Switch

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nintendo doesn't owe you a cheap way to deploy your custom binaries to devices. Buy a Steam Deck if you want that. Build it for Web GL or Android. Plenty of options exist. I'm not sure what OP actually wants here. Even if you can get your game running on your own Switch, it's not easy to get it up on the store.

We don't owe Nintendo to let them sell their junk.

Then buy a different product.

It's well known game consoles aren't the place to run custom code. If you can figure it out, power to you, but it's simply not a supported use case of the product.

Re: Free Godot engine port for Nintendo Switch

#216
post #211
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds really unfortunate. I also know little about this process, what do the publishers do that we cannot do ourselves? I guess they have pre existing deals with the major console makers that allows them to send things to market with little friction? Maybe that's why some indie devs just target PC, they lock themselves out of the console market but also don't have to deal with publishers?

First and most important publishers provide funding. To give an example here is a work you need to build a small game and you can imagine how much it costs: - 1 project manager / year. - 1 game designer / year. - 1-2 programmer / year. - 2-3 months month of sound design / music. - 3-5 artists / year. Even if you have a great multi-skill team you need at least 5-6 people for a 6-9-12 months and it's would be very much…

Thanks, this makes a lot of sense, and I learned about how games are really created. It's sad because I see devs like Notch or Zeekerss who somehow go solo and make millions, but clearly these are the exceptions and these medium-sized teams are typically the minimum required to get a real game out the door.

Re: Free Godot engine port for Nintendo Switch

#217
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You aren’t prohibited under the license, but you are prohibited under the contract you agreed to, to get that code. This doesn't make sense to me. MIT is a license to share and modify code. If another license can supersede that and remove rights granted by the actual license, then what prevents any company from releasing their code under MIT and then adding a shrinkwrap EULA that prevents looking at the code or mod…

what prevents any company from releasing their code under MIT and then adding a shrinkwrap EULA that prevents looking at the code or modifying it? The license wouldn't mean anything. This has been an intentional feature of MIT/BSD licenses all along. Tons of proprietary products are built on MIT/BSD code.

No, you misunderstand me.

You can build a proprietary product on top of MIT/BSD code. You can not revoke someone else's license. You CAN put MIT code in a proprietary product and not share it. But you can NOT tell someone else that they are not legally allowed to share code that they have been given under an MIT/BSD license. The MIT license is permission to share the code.

Nothing would prevent this project from building a proprietary product with MIT/BSD code in it and not sharing the code or sharing it under a different license. But if they say, "here's the code it's being given to you under an MIT license" -- then I don't see how they can add on top of that "subject to this NDA". If they give you the code MIT licensed, it's MIT licensed. If they give you the code with a bunch of other licensing restrictions, then they're not giving you an MIT license, they're giving you some other weird hybrid license that is not Open Source.

We don't have a licensing mechanism that I'm aware of for allowing companies to say, "here's a legal document outlining the terms of this license, and also pretend that these terms aren't binding."

Re: Free Godot engine port for Nintendo Switch

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You aren’t prohibited under the license, but you are prohibited under the contract you agreed to, to get that code. This doesn't make sense to me. MIT is a license to share and modify code. If another license can supersede that and remove rights granted by the actual license, then what prevents any company from releasing their code under MIT and then adding a shrinkwrap EULA that prevents looking at the code or mod…

Do you have free speech? Yes, it's your constitutional right. But then you become a lawyer and you get some clients. Do you have the freedom to say whatever you want about your client's case, in public? No, you don't. You have given up your right to exercise free speech on those specific issues. Another example. You have free speech to criticize McDonalds. You can mock them all you like. But let's say, you sign a con…

I'm going to be blunt, reading this comment makes me think you might be theorizing in an area where you don't have the legal expertise to speak confidently.

> Do you have free speech? Yes, it's your constitutional right. But then you become a lawyer and you get some clients. Do you have the freedom to say whatever you want about your client's case, in public? No, you don't. You have given up your right to exercise free speech on those specific issues.

This is not how copyright law works, we should not be analogizing copyright and the 1st amendment.

> But let's say, you sign a contract to become a PR Spokesman for them. You then mock them publicly, on their official Twitter account. Can you be sued? Yes you can, and your constitutional right will not defend you.

I think this is an oversimplification of how that kind of liability would work, but more importantly, once again, 1st Amendment rights and license agreements are not the same thing, this should not be used as a comparison.

----

> Congratulations, that's actually the law right now at a certain level, and what the furor over Red Hat Enterprise Linux was about.

No, using this analogy makes me less confident that you know what you're talking about. Red Hat Enterprise Linux could sever relationships with a client, it could even potentially maybe bring charges over a client circumventing controls to access that code in the future, but it could not bring legal cause against people for distributing the code.

This is not me theorizing on this point, multiple people/orgs decided to keep basing their products on RHEL code and distributing that code and Red Hat didn't have or try to make a legal claim against them. The only thing RHEL could do was say "okay, because of that contract violation, we don't want you as a customer anymore."

> This was later deemed too risky, unworkable, and antagonizing; which is why Alma Linux and others have given up on that approach, and just aim for general bug-for-bug compatibility from scratch.

I think this is a gross mischaracterization of what these orgs did. The full extent of legal risk that I heard anyone in these organizations at all worry about was circumvention of the contract to access new versions of the code after Red Hat had banned them as a customer. I'm not aware of anyone who was scared that Red Hat could sue them over distributing GPL code they already had.

And even there, most of the concern I heard was not over lawsuits but over the practical, everyday unreliability of getting access to new versions of RHEL when their accounts could be closed at any time. When Red Hat was called out as violating the GPL, their entire defense was that they were not putting a restriction on what people could do with the code, they were only adding terms around what you could do while still remaining a customer.

If Red Hat had claimed that they were imposing a restriction that violated the GPL, they would have been opening up themselves to lawsuits, because Red Hat doesn't own Linux and their usage of Linux is bound by them respecting the GPL license under which the code is provided to them -- and the GPL bars them from imposing that restriction. Red Hat does not have the legal permission to impose additional restrictions on the GPL, their usage of Linux code is subject to them respecting the terms of the license they agreed to. So under no circumstances would Red Hat ever claim that they were imposing a restriction on the redistribution of source code of RHEL, the company has been extremely adamant that they are not doing that.

Is your claim here that Red Hat has violated the GPL? Red Hat is claiming that they haven't violated the GPL and that they are not interfering with GPL rights. If they are putting a legal barrier in front of redistribution of GPL-licensed kernel code, then great, I hope that kernel devs sue them -- because Red Hat definitely does not have permission to do that with code that they don't own.

Re: Free Godot engine port for Nintendo Switch

#219
post #179

> License: The source code is distributed under the MIT License, offering broad usage and modification rights. I might be missing something, but how did they manage to swing this? I thought proprietary NDAs around the Switch's API were the biggest holdups preventing Switch support from being added to Godot itself. I would have assumed this would be free but would require signing some kind of source-available license…

It's not vanilla MIT but some kind of MIT + NDA.

> MIT + NDA

Okay, that's... not MIT then? I don't understand, you can't just call things MIT if they're not actually MIT and don't have the same license terms. Is the page just lying about what the license is?

"I'm giving away a product for free, but it's the special kind of free where it's free and you have to give me 20 dollars to get it."

This was annoying enough when Mongo released source available code and called it Open Source, but have we graduated to releasing full-on proprietary code that doesn't even hit common thresholds of source available licenses and we're just calling it Open Source anyway?

Re: Free Godot engine port for Nintendo Switch

#220
post #216
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First and most important publishers provide funding. To give an example here is a work you need to build a small game and you can imagine how much it costs: - 1 project manager / year. - 1 game designer / year. - 1-2 programmer / year. - 2-3 months month of sound design / music. - 3-5 artists / year. Even if you have a great multi-skill team you need at least 5-6 people for a 6-9-12 months and it's would be very much…

Thanks, this makes a lot of sense, and I learned about how games are really created. It's sad because I see devs like Notch or Zeekerss who somehow go solo and make millions, but clearly these are the exceptions and these medium-sized teams are typically the minimum required to get a real game out the door.

There are no "one size fits it all". Some good games can be built by one person given there are right tools available and your skillset is align well. Problem with solo development is that you can't make a job out of it unless you are already have big community of followers or released something popular.

I sure it's possible to get $100,000 of budget for a new game as team of 5 people to release it within 6-12 moinths. Even without much of track record it's doable if you have cool prototype. But I pretty certain no one will ever give money to yet unknown solo developer to release the same game in 2-3 years.

Yet modern tools become better and better every year and even for $100-500 you can buy enough of assets to build something that look good enough in 3D. There are just certain genres and art styles that just require larger team.

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