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United Airlines CEO says the airline will consider alternatives to Boeing

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Re: United Airlines CEO says the airline will consider alternatives to Boeing

#181
post #5

Actions have consequences. Boeing decided they wanted to focus on maximizing profits rather than allowing organic growth to follow on continued high quality engineering and services. In regulated industries, especially where safety is of utmost importance, this is exceptionally risky. They F'd around and found out, and imho the only solution is leadership and strategy changes to shrink their business and refocus on b…

> Actions have consequences.

It’s not clear to me that this is the case here. The people responsible for ruining Boeing are all still fabulously wealthy and will be for generations. I guess you could call only having 20 lifetimes of wealth instead of 100 a consequence, but I certainly don’t see it that way.

Re: United Airlines CEO says the airline will consider alternatives to Boeing

#182

There's a dogma that regulation is de facto inefficient and bad generally, and I think it's almost universally accepted that that's the case for the self-interest of businesses. But like any dogma, any prejudice, it's wrong: Businesses have self-interest; it's overwhelming and they can't escape it and its biases (though they can and should moderate it, and some businesses do that much better than others). Regulation…

Hum... Regulators are inefficient. Regulations exist for stopping society from getting stuck into suboptimal Pareto equilibria.

So you don't want regulators to do things that are not their minimum job, but anybody with a general argument against regulation is just trying to rob you.

Re: United Airlines CEO says the airline will consider alternatives to Boeing

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The former is under the control of the latter.

I'm not arguing that parasites don't have control over their host [1], I'm arguing that they're separate entities. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31980266/

They're separate, but one owns and controls the other. I'm not seeing how pointing out that they're separate (a point on which I don't believe anyone here was confused in the first place) adds anything material to this exchange. "Boeing decided something", in a business strategy context, is just shorthand for "the people who control Boeing decided something", because Boeing doesn't ever decide anything. It can't.

Re: United Airlines CEO says the airline will consider alternatives to Boeing

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about the contractors. Most of the rovers, orbiters etc which we think of when we think of NASA overperforming, like Curiosity, Spirit, Voyager, Cassini, were built by JPL, not Boeing, Lockmart or NG.

Could you give us examples of NASA contractor projects that have these problems?

With the contractors, we have:

* The Space Shuttle - a death trap and reusable in no practical sense. Refurbishment involved near rebuild of large components. Often used as proof about how reusable rockets were not financially viable prior to F9's reliability.

* SLS (ie the rocket to nowhere) - too expensive and too slow to build to be worth using unless literally mandated by law. Is too rough of a ride, Orion's screens had to be modified to flicker in sync with the vibrations so that they would be readable. Congress (in blatant bias towards Boeing) attempted to mandate Europa Clipper to launch on it instead of Falcon Heavy, only backing down when told that they'd have to give Clipper an extra $1B (in addition to the $3B for an SLS launch) to make it able to handle the conditions imposed by SLS. Continues to be a burden on NASA's budget by eating up funding for other projects.

* Vulcan being forcibly neutered down to the bare minimum functionality needed to sell national security launches, because the original proposal would've reduced costs and removed the one existing need for SLS. They were proposing an upgraded second stage which would be able to be refueled in orbit and would've been able to carry Orion. Boeing tried to get the designer of that component fired. Also has the bare minimum to be 'reusable' by having an eventual goal of detaching the first stage engines from the body and splashing them down via inflatable heat shield. Basically does just enough to be a minimum viable competitor to F9 in national security launches and nothing more.

* Starliner with its initially poor software, stuck valves, fire resistance system that actually catches fire and parachute issues. Here Boeing got NASA to pay them extra money on top of the agreed upon fixed-price contract, holding domestic access to the ISS over them. Also tried to get SpaceX's contract cancelled and that money also awarded to themselves for no additional changes. The vehicle is designed for the bare minimum required for the contract (only 2 being built), with no interest in separate commercial activity the way Dragon is used in.

* JWST (ie the telescope that ate astronomy) - massive delays, budget overruns and serious failures in testing which caused another ~5 year delay. It was nicknamed "the telescope that ate astronomy" due to the budget overruns, which harmed several other telescope projects.

* Hubble - the work done directly by NASA was mostly fine, but contractors had large cost and schedule overruns, with the mirror issue due to a failing contractor and Lockmart facing cost overruns + not taking the initiative with designing the spacecraft for the telescope.

There is a heavy Boeing bias here since the main culprit in half of these examples is Boeing. But at the moment these were the main cases that came to mind.

The sad thing about these cases is that the early excuse for not taking risks with new companies like SpaceX was that they didn't have spaceflight "heritage" and couldn't be trusted to not cut corners in important places, with the implication that the established companies would be charging less if they could without compromising safety/quality.

Re: United Airlines CEO says the airline will consider alternatives to Boeing

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not arguing that parasites don't have control over their host [1], I'm arguing that they're separate entities. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31980266/

They're separate, but one owns and controls the other. I'm not seeing how pointing out that they're separate (a point on which I don't believe anyone here was confused in the first place) adds anything material to this exchange. "Boeing decided something", in a business strategy context, is just shorthand for "the people who control Boeing decided something", because Boeing doesn't ever decide anything . It can't.

> because Boeing doesn't ever decide anything. It can't.

Something tells me the board & shareholders will disagree if any criminal investigations are open on these failures. When companies break the law the shareholders never claim its impossible decisions were made without them. [1] [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo_cross-selling_scan...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

Re: United Airlines CEO says the airline will consider alternatives to Boeing

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fly a lot, way more than the average person. I try to avoid the 737-Max, but I'm rather picky about which aircraft I want to fly on.

What airplanes do you like flying on? Just out of curiosity.

I prefer the A320neo to any 737. The Boeing 787-800 and 777-300s. The A330 is fine as well. It's been a long time but it's a joy to fly on a 747.

My dream is to fly on an A380 one day.

Re: United Airlines CEO says the airline will consider alternatives to Boeing

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don‘t they scale up? They seem to have all the regulatory capabilities to get a commercial jet on the market already. I also never understood why e.g. China doesnm‘t just buy Embraer (or take over all their employees) and builds out from a functioning product?

Scaling up would be hard. I think the E2 is a 4 seat across aircraft. It's maximum capacity configuration is already quite long (42m) with ~120-150 seats. A320 is like 38m long with ~200 seats (6 seat across). Scaling into the A320/737 range would need a brand new design with wider fuselage probably. I'm not saying that Embraer could not do that, but sticking with the E2/A220 size range seems to be a winning combo -…

Scaling the E2 is not the answer, but there is nothing stopping Embraer from developing a six across airframe to compete with the B737 or A320. They have the engineering talent and the supply chain network in place. They have the capital. If they see a market opening, who knows… they just may go ahead.

Re: United Airlines CEO says the airline will consider alternatives to Boeing

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What airplanes do you like flying on? Just out of curiosity.

I prefer the A320neo to any 737. The Boeing 787-800 and 777-300s. The A330 is fine as well. It's been a long time but it's a joy to fly on a 747. My dream is to fly on an A380 one day.

My experiences on the A380 have been particularly quiet and (in the configurations I’ve flown, if there are multiple) comfortable and spacious as well.

In fact it might the only aircraft model that my wife knows by its designation, due to how good her experiences on it have been.

Re: United Airlines CEO says the airline will consider alternatives to Boeing

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What airplanes do you like flying on? Just out of curiosity.

I prefer the A320neo to any 737. The Boeing 787-800 and 777-300s. The A330 is fine as well. It's been a long time but it's a joy to fly on a 747. My dream is to fly on an A380 one day.

Same here, I'd love to fly on an A380. I've flow plenty 747s as a kid, and I have great memories of them. The last one I flew was an A330-neo that I thought was really nice as well. Looking forward to fly the new Embraer E190 at some point.
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