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The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

hawaiiseaglider.org

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Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#41

Post by taylorfinley »

hawaiianbrah wrote: post #22
m-ee wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong kind of environmental concerns from what locals have told me. The issues were more about increased traffic from Oahu to the less populated islands and people taking things that have been made more or less extinct on Oahu like opihi or the lava rocks used for cooking kalua pig.

I thought the problem with the ferry was not doing the underwater environmental review

The GP's post tracks with my recollection from the time. On the return leg of one of the very first trips to Maui three pickup trucks were found with beds full of lava rock, allegedly collected without permission or permits. This was the inciting incident that seemed to confirm the neighbor islands' residents fears that the Superferry would lead to plundering of cultural resources en masse (not to mention making existing overcrowding worse). On a subsequent trip to kauai a large number of protestors (or protectors I suppose, depending on your view) paddled out on surfboards and blocked the ferry's path at Nawiliwili.

Here's a contemporaneous report about the lava rocks from an independent journalist: http://www.islandbreath.org/2007Year/09-access&transport/070...

The rocks weren't the direct cause of the Superferry shutting down, but in my recollection they sure charted the course that way: people who might have seemed to some like they were just fighting change to fight change suddenly had irrefutable evidence to confirm their fears. There were of course other legal challenges that actually led to the shutdown, bankruptcy, and subsequent abandonment of the vessels. But at the time, on the neighbor islands, it sure crystalized the opposition.

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#43

Post by [deleted] »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #39
rtpg wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can a ground effect plane really be more efficient than a ferry or a hyperfoil? It just seems like a boat that can carry cargo etc would be useful infrastructure instead of a fast taxi service. Pour que no los dos perhaps... To be clear, what I read about the ferry service being shut down made it sound like Hawaii has some dysfunction preventing good and normal things from happening, just sounds like this would be le…

Efficiency is not the only metric here. Water has a lot of friction. That's why boats are relatively slow and use a lot of fuel or electricity. A ferry with hundreds of miles range would need a huge battery. With distances between islands being tens to hundreds of miles (depending on the route), the speed also matters. For cargo that matters less obviously. This thing is electric and flies over the water. So it uses…

[deleted]

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#44

Post by jongjong »

What happens if the hydrofoil hits a large dolphin, shark, whale or other large sea creature?

Sea animals collide with motor boats occasionally but this Seaglider would be even more likely to do so because:

- It doesn't produce as much underwater noise as a motor which would normally serve to alarm sea animals.

- It goes a lot faster, giving sea animals less time to react.

Then there is the concern about what a collision would cause to the Seaglider itself if the hydrofoil broke off or worse, didn't break off and caused the Seaglider to plunge, nose first, into the ocean.

The other thing to be concerned about are sub-surface rocks. If a boat goes over a rock that's hidden just below the surface, it can badly damage the boat and motor and can cause death, but again, the faster you go, the more damage can be done.

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#45

Post by jouleshey »

jongjong wrote: post #44

What happens if the hydrofoil hits a large dolphin, shark, whale or other large sea creature? Sea animals collide with motor boats occasionally but this Seaglider would be even more likely to do so because: - It doesn't produce as much underwater noise as a motor which would normally serve to alarm sea animals. - It goes a lot faster, giving sea animals less time to react. Then there is the concern about what a colli…

That’s my concern too. A whale at high speeds can’t be safe

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#46

Post by eesmith »

bruce511 wrote: post #34
Animats wrote: post #24

It's an ekranoplan. The USSR made several. The actual vehicle is from a company called Regent.[1] They do have a quarter-scale prototype, and a video. This web site is from some group trying to get funding for a service. The current Regent ekranoplan, not yet shipping, is a 12 passenger model. That seems small for an inter-island ferry. It would be faster than a ferry, but since the existing inter-island ferry routes…

>> Probably just a tourist attraction. Yes and no. One the one hand, absolutely a tourist attraction. Its projected to be cheaper than flying, and hopes to be a lot less hassle. (Expect pushback from the airlines. ) However small capacity, cheap, accessible transport is a boon for islanders living in archipelago. For starters you're not bound to islands big enough for an airport. Given that the vehicle is electric, a…

> for starters you're not bound to islands big enough for an airport.

The competition for that space is seaplanes, including both floatplanes and flying boats, which have been around for a century. Electric versions of those exist, like https://harbourair.com/corporate-responsibility/goingelectri... , and https://el-fly.no/ wants to build an electric amphibious flying boat.

Yes, a ground-effect vehicle has better wing efficiency than an aircraft. However, it has disadvantages, like how it handles waves. A flying boat, for example, only needs to worry about the waves at the departure and arrival locations, which may be in a protected harbor or channel, while a GEV must deal with larger waves between the islands.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-effect_vehicle#Advantag... for additional comparisons.

> So what starts small, and touristy

I flew on a seaplane between the US and the Bahamas, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalk%27s_International_Airlin... . It was a fun touristy thing, but not touristy enough to maintain a commercial seaplane service.

> On the environmental front I expect the usual "complain about anything new" crowd

Thing is, this isn't new. Ground effect vehicles have been around for decades, the technology is pretty mature, and the problems also pretty well known. If someone cracks that nut - great! - but a lot of people have tried and failed to extend its use outside of some niche areas. That history of failure tends to dampen enthusiasm.

> But it's hard to see how this does more environmental harm than planes or boats.

That calculation is not easy. If you want to minimize environmental harm the most, switch to sailboat. Cook used no fossil fuels to travel to and around Hawaii, and neither did the Polynesians who discovered the place.

If you want to minimize CO2 emissions, ban all inter-island flights and switch to ferries - https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint says ferries emit about 1/7th of the CO2 as short-haul flights.

And there are electric ferries these days, like https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/02/worlds-largest-electric... , though that's not ocean going. See https://electrek.co/2023/01/17/worlds-largest-electric-ferry... for one in the works.

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#47

Post by [deleted] »

ako wrote: post #13
yieldcrv wrote: post #8

> A preliminary survey of Hawai‘i residents showed they are concerned that seagliders will only be affordable to the affluent and may result in an increased tax burden on Hawai‘i’s residents. The survey also showed that residents are concerned that seagliders may produce some form of ecological damage either near shore or in the areas surrounding the harbors. Others expressed their concern about how seagliders can po…

Seems like the usual “all change is bad” reaction you see around most initiatives. All the alternatives have similar downsides or worse.

[deleted]

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#48

Post by petre »

Animats wrote: post #37
petre wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is the craft, the Regent Viceroy sea glider: 12+2 crew, 3500 lbs payload, up to 156 nm range, 156 kt. It can fly an hour, might be okay for island hopping. https://www.regentcraft.com/seagliders/viceroy

When I go to the web sites of some of their "customers", there's no mention of this thing. Regent's own site says "Seagliders have 160 nautical mile range with existing battery technology (upgradeable to over 400 nautical mile range with next generation battery technology) and will enter service by 2025. Full-scale prototypes will begin human flight trials by 2024. Specifications and configuration are subject to chan…

I know it's possibly vapour but I wish they build the craft and find a market for it to make it commercially viable. I was thinking Hawaii, Canary Islands, Azores, Balearic Islands, crossing between Sardinia and Corsica and from around Messina Sicily to mainland Italy, Japan, South Korea (eg. Wando-Jeju), NZ (eg. Wellington area to Waikawa or Picton). You don't need shipping port or ferry infrastructure for it, a smaller port or a marina with good acces to electricity might be enough. For the rest of SE Asia it might be too expensive, but it might be useful in the Philippines and Indonesia.

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#49

Post by [deleted] »

Animats wrote: post #24

It's an ekranoplan. The USSR made several. The actual vehicle is from a company called Regent.[1] They do have a quarter-scale prototype, and a video. This web site is from some group trying to get funding for a service. The current Regent ekranoplan, not yet shipping, is a 12 passenger model. That seems small for an inter-island ferry. It would be faster than a ferry, but since the existing inter-island ferry routes…

[deleted]

Re: The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands

#50

Post by brigade »

bruce511 wrote: post #34
Animats wrote: post #24

It's an ekranoplan. The USSR made several. The actual vehicle is from a company called Regent.[1] They do have a quarter-scale prototype, and a video. This web site is from some group trying to get funding for a service. The current Regent ekranoplan, not yet shipping, is a 12 passenger model. That seems small for an inter-island ferry. It would be faster than a ferry, but since the existing inter-island ferry routes…

>> Probably just a tourist attraction. Yes and no. One the one hand, absolutely a tourist attraction. Its projected to be cheaper than flying, and hopes to be a lot less hassle. (Expect pushback from the airlines. ) However small capacity, cheap, accessible transport is a boon for islanders living in archipelago. For starters you're not bound to islands big enough for an airport. Given that the vehicle is electric, a…

The airlines are the ones already investing and planning on operating these, first as an alternative to their Cessnas and other Certainly claiming these could be in service next year is a tad over optimistic.
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