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The Dawn of Haiku OS

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Re: The Dawn of Haiku OS

#91

Post by astrange »

pjmlp wrote: post #87
cageface wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's not so much the problem of an ABI but the fact that changing base classes in C++ forces client code to be recompiled because offsets of members and vtable entries change: http://haiku-os.org/legacy-docs/benewsletter/Issue2-25.html Apparently Apple gets around this the usual way by padding out their API classes with extra unused members. I wonder what the solution is in Windows 8 & Symbian.

The problem is not C++ specific. Any OO language with native code generation suffers the same problem. It is one of the consequences of the fragile base class problem in OO.

Objective-C 64bit ABI doesn't have fragile base classes; there's an extra layer of indirection to access any data member of an object.

And it actually has private data members! Isn't that nice.

(Private meaning they aren't declared in the public headers, not meaning it uses the useless 'private' attribute.)

Re: The Dawn of Haiku OS

#92

Post by laaph »

batista wrote: post #89
nkoren wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's weird. Mine's a 2009 model and I sorely regret installing Lion on it. The thing absolutely crawls.

I'm running Lion too. If you have repeatable problems, there should be some specific source for it. Tried "Activity Monitor" when it occurs? Common problems can be: Spotlight doing indexing at the time, Flash fucking around, too little available hard drive space (less than 5GB), some rogue app, etc. MBP 2007, 2GB RAM. I have now open: Chrome with 7 tabs, Sublime Text, Terminal (2 tabs, one SSH), Mail, iA Writer, Adiu…

I have Lion, on a 2010 MBP, and I have Activity Monitor open ALL THE TIME.

On Snow Leopard, I found what you say to be true. On Lion, either the mysterious process is eluding me, or it is just much slower. I do development and I can tell you that the iPhone Simulator is a frequent culprit, VirtualBox is also rough (but if I ssh in to my virtual machines rather than use the GUI it's fine), also the Time Machine daemon trying to backup causes things to slow down (even when not plugged in to a disk), but even after that performance is downright crap compared to Snow Leopard.

If you have any idea what my specific source could be I'd be thrilled to hear it. Frequently at the top of my Activity Monitor is WindowServer and kernel_task, except when compiling or other fun things. Even when the interface is locking up I can't find anything fun.

Re: The Dawn of Haiku OS

#93

Post by Zirro »

laaph wrote: post #92
batista wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm running Lion too. If you have repeatable problems, there should be some specific source for it. Tried "Activity Monitor" when it occurs? Common problems can be: Spotlight doing indexing at the time, Flash fucking around, too little available hard drive space (less than 5GB), some rogue app, etc. MBP 2007, 2GB RAM. I have now open: Chrome with 7 tabs, Sublime Text, Terminal (2 tabs, one SSH), Mail, iA Writer, Adiu…

I have Lion, on a 2010 MBP, and I have Activity Monitor open ALL THE TIME. On Snow Leopard, I found what you say to be true. On Lion, either the mysterious process is eluding me, or it is just much slower. I do development and I can tell you that the iPhone Simulator is a frequent culprit, VirtualBox is also rough (but if I ssh in to my virtual machines rather than use the GUI it's fine), also the Time Machine daemon…

Do you by any chance have one or more external hard drives attached? I've been having a lot of lock-up issues while I have six of them connected (through a hub) to a MacBook Pro from 2011 running Lion. It looks like this (also shows it dropping to normal levels instantly):

http://cl.ly/1s3N2r2X1u2J2K010H2i

There's no process running wild from what I can see in the Activity Monitor, but it appears to happen a lot less frequently or not at all when I don't have my external hard drives attached.

Re: The Dawn of Haiku OS

#94

Post by laaph »

Zirro wrote: post #93
laaph wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have Lion, on a 2010 MBP, and I have Activity Monitor open ALL THE TIME. On Snow Leopard, I found what you say to be true. On Lion, either the mysterious process is eluding me, or it is just much slower. I do development and I can tell you that the iPhone Simulator is a frequent culprit, VirtualBox is also rough (but if I ssh in to my virtual machines rather than use the GUI it's fine), also the Time Machine daemon…

Do you by any chance have one or more external hard drives attached? I've been having a lot of lock-up issues while I have six of them connected (through a hub) to a MacBook Pro from 2011 running Lion. It looks like this (also shows it dropping to normal levels instantly): http://cl.ly/1s3N2r2X1u2J2K010H2i There's no process running wild from what I can see in the Activity Monitor, but it appears to happen a lot less…

No external hard drives attached, except when I remember to back up my machine (I frequently, but not always, plug it in when it is on my desk, but it is just for Time Machine).

Also, unless I am running heavy CPU things (XCode, VirtualBox machines, etc), I usually don't get a lot of CPU time like that.

Re: The Dawn of Haiku OS

#95

Post by [deleted] »

astrange wrote: post #91
pjmlp wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not C++ specific. Any OO language with native code generation suffers the same problem. It is one of the consequences of the fragile base class problem in OO.

Objective-C 64bit ABI doesn't have fragile base classes; there's an extra layer of indirection to access any data member of an object. And it actually has private data members! Isn't that nice. (Private meaning they aren't declared in the public headers, not meaning it uses the useless 'private' attribute.)

[deleted]

Re: The Dawn of Haiku OS

#96

Post by rbanffy »

tqh wrote: post #75
rbanffy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have machines scattered throughout the office for meetings (mostly Jira or other web applications). One of those has Haiku running and people seem to like it just fine. I do find, however, the ergonomics of the window manager to be atrocious. The little tabs, while faithful and part of the visual identity of BeOS, are, perhaps, the worst idea since the invention of overlapping windows. I'd suggest focusing on the…

The stack and tile functions might make you reconsider: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y-6YmGd30A

Cool, but I still think tabs should be as wide as the window when not stacked. Small tabs only make hitting them harder.

Re: The Dawn of Haiku OS

#97

Post by rbanffy »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #60
brackishlake wrote: post #54

"Haiku is probably the best positioned to challenge the mainstream operating systems like Microsoft Windows and Mac OS." This is an absurd statement. Stop wasting time solving problems that don't exist for 98% of the market. "More choice" is not a better than if the choices suck. "Within 20 seconds or so of restarting, the machine was chugging away with all of its media files in the place they were when they were hal…

> If you feel an urge to "start from scratch" — help rebuild everything for mobile. Given that mobile hardware is about where desktop hardware was when BeOS was invented, I wonder if some company could use it as a new smartphone OS. There's an unfinished ARM port in progress but would probably need commercial support to complete. The thing about innovation is, it's not always possible to predict what will be valuable…

You know Palm (or was it Access?) bought Be (and BeOS) for reasons then (and, to be fair, now too) unfathomable.

Now they can say "That's what we intended all along" ;-)

Re: The Dawn of Haiku OS

#98

Post by ZenPsycho »

laaph wrote: post #94
Zirro wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you by any chance have one or more external hard drives attached? I've been having a lot of lock-up issues while I have six of them connected (through a hub) to a MacBook Pro from 2011 running Lion. It looks like this (also shows it dropping to normal levels instantly): http://cl.ly/1s3N2r2X1u2J2K010H2i There's no process running wild from what I can see in the Activity Monitor, but it appears to happen a lot less…

No external hard drives attached, except when I remember to back up my machine (I frequently, but not always, plug it in when it is on my desk, but it is just for Time Machine). Also, unless I am running heavy CPU things (XCode, VirtualBox machines, etc), I usually don't get a lot of CPU time like that.

step 1. go into /Library/Quicktime and move ALL the .component files out of there. step 2. Go into ~/Library/Quicktime and move ALL the .component files out of there. step 3. (re)-install perian step 4. Try playing a movie that usually craps out.

One of the annoying things about Mac OSX is that a rogue codec can mess up ALL media playing activities on the computer- so when you encounter problems, I've found the most successful strategy is to figure out which codec is messing things up.

Re: The Dawn of Haiku OS

#99

Post by batista »

laaph wrote: post #92
batista wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm running Lion too. If you have repeatable problems, there should be some specific source for it. Tried "Activity Monitor" when it occurs? Common problems can be: Spotlight doing indexing at the time, Flash fucking around, too little available hard drive space (less than 5GB), some rogue app, etc. MBP 2007, 2GB RAM. I have now open: Chrome with 7 tabs, Sublime Text, Terminal (2 tabs, one SSH), Mail, iA Writer, Adiu…

I have Lion, on a 2010 MBP, and I have Activity Monitor open ALL THE TIME. On Snow Leopard, I found what you say to be true. On Lion, either the mysterious process is eluding me, or it is just much slower. I do development and I can tell you that the iPhone Simulator is a frequent culprit, VirtualBox is also rough (but if I ssh in to my virtual machines rather than use the GUI it's fine), also the Time Machine daemon…

OK, I don't use VirtualBox, for performance reasons I use VMWare Fusion. Even with this, I find, as you, that using GUI on the VM slows the Mac much more than ssh'ing to the VM. So, the VM is a serious culprit. Certainly, if I have the VM running, I expect some slowdown and occasional swapping -- basically it means I just gave up 1 GB or memory to the VM (out of 2) plus tons of I/O scheduled by a different OS within my OS.

Other than that, I also don't run Time Machine at all -- I use Carbon Copy Cloner or Super Duper to make incremental and/or bootable backups every week or so. With iCloud, Dropbox etc for the important day to day documents, I don't see much need for Time Machine anymore.

So those would be two places to look at.

Besides those, you can try running some DTrace scripts for a more detailed look when your system starts to crap out.

Re: The Dawn of Haiku OS

#100

Post by alxp »

Lewisham wrote: post #78
shadesandcolour wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people dislike it because it's not as efficient. Lion takes a while to startup everything where you left it, sometimes I wonder if I would have been better off to close it all and open it with the time it takes. It's getting better though.

Lion takes a good 3-5 minutes to start up from cold to having restored my windows, due to all the disk thrashing it does loading all the programs back up at once. I get the feeling it doesn't often respect my choice of not opening the windows, so I get to sit there and watch it grind away opening programs I probably don't want it to open as that's the reason I rebooted in the first place.

It seems Lion's implementation of restarting apps depends on SSD type speeds. Also a fairly fat application like a browser has an entirely different amount of work to do before it stops loading compared with the very thin media players that this BeOS demonstration would have been demoing. Apples to Oranges, but BeOS's being multi-thread-mandatory from the start where Lion's application resume was an add-on feature to mature apps will make the difference pretty glaring.
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