Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel

#441

Post by dangus » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 12:18 AM UTC

jmholla wrote: post #268

I feel like this might be a good place to share something I learned recently about credit cards: interest accrues daily, not by statement (e.g. monthly). Further, your statement does not accurately reflect what you owe for that billing period. Instead, the interest for that period will be reflected on your next bill. I had errantly figured I could postpone my payments to the due date and not accrue interest, but that…

This is true, but only if you’re not paying your full statement balance each month.

If you’re paying your full statement balance then you can wait all the way until the due date since you’ve never accrued any interest in the first place.

Re: Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel

#442

Post by themacguffinman » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 12:18 AM UTC

_Algernon_ wrote: post #435

themacguffinman wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears like rationalization to you (edit for context: the parent comment said it was rationalizing before it was edited) because you've already made up your mind about the malicious intent of companies who use this model. The reality is that companies can't know if they're "bleeding people for no services rendered" because of bingeing behavior. Someone watching a lot then staying off for a few months is difficult…

Not signing in to a service you have a subscription to is a pretty clear signal that it is not being used. I'm not aware of any streaming service that automatically pauses a subscription if you don't sign in for a full month.

I strongly disagree, I have media subscriptions right now that I won't sign into for a month or even multiple months but I don't intend on giving it up. This is especially true for niche streaming content where production costs aren't exactly cheap but their niche nature means not everyone is consistently in the mood for that content.

Re: Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel

#443

Post by lwhi » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 12:19 AM UTC

carlosjobim wrote: post #332

lwhi wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not bizarre when you consider the lengths companies go to, to try convince those who can least afford it to make a purchase. The most vulnerable are used a fodder for a vast capitalist system.

Industrialisation means that most consumer goods are mass produced. That means these companies need to make their money from wide sales instead of tall sales. Wide as in getting as many individual customers as possible, instead of tall as in selling bespoke products for an expensive price to few customers. Very few people need more than one washing machine. Well off people already own washing machines. So if you're s…

What's your point?

That the system is just fine thank you Sir, move along?

Re: Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel

#444

Post by makeitdouble » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 12:23 AM UTC

behringer wrote: post #147

lazide wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This with dignity? Or do you also ask for handouts everywhere you go?

We might need nuance, but dignity doesn't pay the bills.

It reminds me of the donation drives of Wikipedia who are a microcosm of all this tension. Wikipedia is a genuinely important service that needs to keep going, but boy their marketing manipulative and cringy as hell.

Re: Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel

#445

Post by dangus » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 12:27 AM UTC

SeanAnderson wrote: post #99

This sort of thing exists in many areas, not just subscriptions. Starbucks has over $1.5B (something like 17% of its free cash, don't quote me though) in the form of spare change lingering on Starbucks Cards. It fundamentally affects their financials, but is also perceived as just spare change slipping into the couch.

Well, it’s still a liability on the balance sheet. But it’s great for cash flow and general accounting flexibility.

This is a similar to how airlines are more like banks than airlines these days. They issue credit cards and collect transaction fees, but instead of giving cardholders cash back they give them miles…gift cards for future travel, essentially. If something bad happens financially it’s a great buffer for them. They can always manipulate the value of miles within some level of reason until customers get mad (see: Delta). It’s also great to be a bank when you’re in a capital-intense business.

This concept is also how how fast-growing businesses can have cash flow problems.

Let’s say I pay my vendors right away, but when I sell my widgets I get paid 30 days later.

If I sell 10 widgets the first month, and suddenly sell 1000 widgets the second month, I might look like I’m an incredibly profitable company. But I probably ran out of cash to pay my vendors for the raw materials to build my widgets.

Re: Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel

#446

Post by javajosh » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 12:28 AM UTC

dcotter wrote: post #372

I'm surprised literally no one suggested just cancelling the vast majority of your subscription services and cutting ties with unethical companies. The suggestion that poor people need yet more help from the government because they're too dumb, busy, or gullible to know when they're about to get screwed is condescending. The suggestion that the core audience of WSJ and HN needs this is pitiful. Want to watch a movie?…

Do 30-day trials and put a reminder in your calendar to cancel with the URL to do so. Make this a habit. Yes, subscriptions are a dark pattern but the minimal amount of effort to avoid being charged in some circumstances (not gyms) seems like a small thing. That said, the world would indeed be a better place if businesses didn't charge you for service they weren't providing. Although you might model these monthly subscriptions as "insurance premiums" to save the 5 minute sign-up time the next time you want to watch something.

Re: Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel

#447

Post by makeitdouble » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 12:32 AM UTC

smtp wrote: post #385

hartator wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> restaurant buffets Buffets have monthly subcriptions?

I was legitimately excited about this idea. If anyone wants to start a buffet with a monthly subscription, I may be your first customer.

A monthly subscription restaurant would be a true game changer.

I'm imagining going to a place where I sit and choose food without ever making price calculations, the restaurant also doesn't have to care about pushing drink orders or time spent at the table.

if the cost was low enough people would probably stop caring about optimizing and try to get their money's worth, while the restaurant would only need to focus on customer satisfaction to get renewals.

That must exist in some way, what is it ?

Edit: school restauration is that, and I genuinely think of it as a crucial system that helps so many kids. I could see company restaurants in the same light but the closed nature isn't great.

Re: Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel

#448

Post by robertlagrant » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 12:33 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #64

The blame falls also on businesses which take money for services they don't deliver. They often know, and otherwise often could know, when subscribers are not using the service. If you're a business, you should earn your revenue, otherwise you are frauds. This particular behavior is little better than taking money and simply refusing to provide service. Don't tell me it's unintentional - you know what's happening and…

> which take money for services they don't deliver

They are delivering a service.

> This particular behavior is little better than taking money and simply refusing to provide service

No it's not.

> No matter how awful or shameful, people say 'it's business' and those magic words absolve every evil

No, they don't.

Re: Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel

#449

Post by runsonrum » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 12:34 AM UTC

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #381

wolverine876 wrote: post #64

The blame falls also on businesses which take money for services they don't deliver. They often know, and otherwise often could know, when subscribers are not using the service. If you're a business, you should earn your revenue, otherwise you are frauds. This particular behavior is little better than taking money and simply refusing to provide service. Don't tell me it's unintentional - you know what's happening and…

"It should be shame that also falls on them, but somehow we give businesses a pass." I have always viewed the push for "subscriptions" as a business model by so-called "tech" companies with suspicion. Looks like it was warranted. Forgetting to cancel is part of the scheme. A friend of mine once worked briefly for a direct marketing company many, many years ago, pre-www. He said they knew a certain percentage would fo…

I'm sure there are some out there that remember 10.. 15.. 20 CDs for 1¢ mail order.

My assumption was that they would bank on guilt or forgetfulness to keep the cash flowing in.

Re: Americans are spending billions on stuff they forget to cancel

#450

Post by robertlagrant » Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 12:36 AM UTC

_Algernon_ wrote: post #438

Alupis wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with people putting on their adulting pants and actually being responsible? Why outsource personal responsibility to a third party? That seems, absurd. "Frazzled and overloaded" is not an excuse for not looking at your bank account one time in 6 months or longer. That's just plain old fashioned irresponsible. If you are at a stage in life where a $10 subscription is hurting, then it stands to reason you…

Personal responsibility only works if parties are roughly equal in terms if power. This is not the case in corporation-consumer relationships. Corporations can employ hundreds or thousands of people whose sole goal is to employ the forefront of scientific psychological knowledge to design dark patterns to make end users not cancel their subscriptions. I hope you wouldn't ask a person who gets harassed by their boss t…

> and such a relationship is a lot less asymmetric in terms of power balance than corporation-consumer relationships are

For these subscriptions, the customer holds not just equal power, but all the power. Clicking unsubscribe really isn't very difficult. If corporations held any power, some of them wouldn't try dark patterns.