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What happened to the US machine tool industry?

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81–90 of 226 posts

Re: What happened to the US machine tool industry?

#81

> Constant pressure to hit quarterly performance targets meant that machine quality often suffered. In some cases, machines would be shipped out the door unfinished so the delivery could be booked, and assembly would be completed by service technicians at the customer’s location. In his history of the American machine tool industry, Albert Albrecht states that “the actions of these larger corporations and conglomerat…

> Constant pressure to hit quarterly performance targets meant that machine quality often suffered. It’s not necessarily the case that greedy, ignorant MBAs came in and ruined everything. Like, if their practices were so inferior, then any domestic firm that didn’t get taken over by them should’ve had a leg up and could’ve dominated the domestic market. Don’t you think the more likely source of “pressure” was the int…

> It’s not necessarily the case that greedy, ignorant MBAs came in and ruined everything. Like, if their practices were so inferior, then any domestic firm that didn’t get taken over by them should’ve had a leg up and could’ve dominated the domestic market.

In this instance, it was people like Icahn.

Machine tools were a very cyclical market. Consequently, they did well as part of a vertically integrated conglomerate where the profits could be booked over time and the R&D could be shared with the manufacturing parent. When forced to spin out and stand alone by corporate raiders, those companies were effectively doomed as you just ripped out their ability to do R&D.

In addition, people forget that the Japanese companies were very much not playing fair. MITI (Ministry of International Trade and Industry) and the keiretsu/zaibatsu companies were actively attacking the US companies--this was effectively governmental and monopoly collusion. This attack was to the point that they almost wiped out the semiconductor industry (which prompted the DARPA VHSIC project and later Sematech in response) for example. They did similar actions in the manufacturing industries but the government never responded with the same vigor.

> Was the policy to outsource everything, or liberalize markets and let firms and consumers more freely choose where to buy things from?

The policy was to fund the hell out of West Coast (high tech and mostly no unions) and to leave the Rust Belt (manufacturing and lots of unions) to rot.

I will be one of the first to line up to piss on Reagan's grave for the complete shit that he was. However, to be fair, NOBODY had any answer to the fact that manufacturing automated and could get by on two orders of magnitude fewer employees. Every country dependent upon manufacturing went through a horrible time (see: England and Thatcher for similar vitriol). In fact, nobody still has any answer 4 decades+ later. It's one of the reasons there are so many old, very angry MAGAs.

> Globalization has done quite a lot to lift people out of poverty and keep prices low.

At what local cost? Nobody in Cleveland gives a shit about whether someone in Africa is doing better when they can't make their house payment.

Re: What happened to the US machine tool industry?

#82
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short, the MBAs happened This describes many many things in the USA.

MBAs are fine, honestly. I have a manager who came up in the industry he works in. He worked at the 'coal-face', understands the issues and has real perspective. He got an MBA later in his career and uses what he learned from that to more effectively communicate up the chain and has some new ideas that he filters through his industry experience to make his team more effective. Children who get an MBA before getting a…

The MBA philosophy vs the craftsman philosophy differ vastly.

Re: What happened to the US machine tool industry?

#83

> Constant pressure to hit quarterly performance targets meant that machine quality often suffered. In some cases, machines would be shipped out the door unfinished so the delivery could be booked, and assembly would be completed by service technicians at the customer’s location. In his history of the American machine tool industry, Albert Albrecht states that “the actions of these larger corporations and conglomerat…

The metric system wasn’t a factor, it was all economics as laid out in the article. Tooling both foreign and domestic was/is a mixture of imperial and metric to meet certain markets. The major force behind machining, automotive, did their conversions to metric back in the 1970s. The U.S. was seriously lacking in computerized machining and had plenty of time to shift to metric based machines, but the MBAs had already…

> Machining today is heavy metric, even in the U.S.

Likely due to the dominance of metric tooling from abroad.

Old ass machine equipment is imperial and is still in use. Imperial measuring devices are still widely available as well.

I think the OP is probably onto something.

Re: What happened to the US machine tool industry?

#84

> Constant pressure to hit quarterly performance targets meant that machine quality often suffered. In some cases, machines would be shipped out the door unfinished so the delivery could be booked, and assembly would be completed by service technicians at the customer’s location. In his history of the American machine tool industry, Albert Albrecht states that “the actions of these larger corporations and conglomerat…

> Constant pressure to hit quarterly performance targets meant that machine quality often suffered. It’s not necessarily the case that greedy, ignorant MBAs came in and ruined everything. Like, if their practices were so inferior, then any domestic firm that didn’t get taken over by them should’ve had a leg up and could’ve dominated the domestic market. Don’t you think the more likely source of “pressure” was the int…

Brand names carry weight for several years before the damage becomes apparent.

Often their cost cutting measures seem positive at first as it creates a profit uptick, but it's usually at the cost of the brand, so 3-5 years later things take a turn (once the consumer has figured out the brand can't be trusted anymore). By that point it's hard to put the blame on the appropriate person or identify the appropriate reason for a less profitable year.

Re: What happened to the US machine tool industry?

#85

> Constant pressure to hit quarterly performance targets meant that machine quality often suffered. In some cases, machines would be shipped out the door unfinished so the delivery could be booked, and assembly would be completed by service technicians at the customer’s location. In his history of the American machine tool industry, Albert Albrecht states that “the actions of these larger corporations and conglomerat…

The metric system wasn’t a factor, it was all economics as laid out in the article. Tooling both foreign and domestic was/is a mixture of imperial and metric to meet certain markets. The major force behind machining, automotive, did their conversions to metric back in the 1970s. The U.S. was seriously lacking in computerized machining and had plenty of time to shift to metric based machines, but the MBAs had already…

The MBAs probably did not want to invest into anything. I see it all the time, it feels like they never thing more than one year ahead.

Re: What happened to the US machine tool industry?

#86
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Constant pressure to hit quarterly performance targets meant that machine quality often suffered. It’s not necessarily the case that greedy, ignorant MBAs came in and ruined everything. Like, if their practices were so inferior, then any domestic firm that didn’t get taken over by them should’ve had a leg up and could’ve dominated the domestic market. Don’t you think the more likely source of “pressure” was the int…

> It’s not necessarily the case that greedy, ignorant MBAs came in and ruined everything. Like, if their practices were so inferior, then any domestic firm that didn’t get taken over by them should’ve had a leg up and could’ve dominated the domestic market. In this instance, it was people like Icahn. Machine tools were a very cyclical market. Consequently, they did well as part of a vertically integrated conglomerate…

There's no such thing as playing fair it's just national industrial policy.

Every country has one.

The change was that ours went from "try to have industry in this country" to "my friends make money offshoring stuff" instead.

Re: What happened to the US machine tool industry?

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the answer to all American manufacturing woes. The dollar as a reserve currency gives the US a ton of global leverage but requires a trade deficit thus it comes at the expense of domestic industries.

I'd love to understand statements like this. Lemme try: Because trade deficits induce demand for dollars? Like how Japan and now China hold a bajillion US dollars? So if the US had (prolonged) trade surplus, no one would be holding dollars? But wouldn't trade partners still need US dollars to buy US goods? Like the situation post-WWII? So then we'd "loan" partners US dollars to buy our stuff? Aiugh. My brain just bro…

"Aiugh. My brain just broke.

How does a noob like me learn about these systems. I know it all probably makes sense to the learned. But with my folk (mis)understanding, these claims sound counterintuitive.

Thanks. "

don't worry, your intuition is right. you are on the right track when you say that your brain broke. you are more learned, or rather, more wise than those guys.

because a lot of economics is BS, a hotchpotch of some art, craft, heuristics, observations and formulae, pretending to be a science.

this is exactly why economics is known as "the dismal science", and why there is a saying that if you get 20 economists in a room and ask them the same question, you will get 20 different answers.

(italics mine)

I studied economics in high school for a whole year (11th grade). the course covered both microeconomics and macroeconomics. the Samuelson (MIT prof., IIRC) book was one of our text books.

I did well in class, was among the top few students.

I made some penetrating comments to which my teacher had no satisfactory answer. it was on a situation / question regarding OPEC (the oil cartel).

from that time on, and also from subsequently reading economics articles and news now and then, I could intuit and piece together the opinions that I stated above. :)

so, not to worry :)

Re: What happened to the US machine tool industry?

#88
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MBAs are fine, honestly. I have a manager who came up in the industry he works in. He worked at the 'coal-face', understands the issues and has real perspective. He got an MBA later in his career and uses what he learned from that to more effectively communicate up the chain and has some new ideas that he filters through his industry experience to make his team more effective. Children who get an MBA before getting a…

The MBA philosophy vs the craftsman philosophy differ vastly.

MBAs are taught techniques for optimizing for quality and cost. It's not always an either/or decision.

Even when it is an either/or situation, sometimes it's better to build a product that is half the price for a quarter of the lifespan. A buyer who will use a tool for 30 hours doesn't really care if the service life of a tool has been reduced from 1000 hours to 250 if the price is halved.

Re: What happened to the US machine tool industry?

#89

> Constant pressure to hit quarterly performance targets meant that machine quality often suffered. In some cases, machines would be shipped out the door unfinished so the delivery could be booked, and assembly would be completed by service technicians at the customer’s location. In his history of the American machine tool industry, Albert Albrecht states that “the actions of these larger corporations and conglomerat…

MBA thinking ruins everything it touches. Boeing is another example. It's all about short-term profits over long term sustainability.

also HP...

Re: What happened to the US machine tool industry?

#90
post #22

> A strong dollar made imports even cheaper by comparison I think that summarizes the article. It has been cheaper to import, so we do. The strong dollar policy supports some industries at the expense of others.

I'd say MBAs driving for quarterly numbers were unable to manage the business cycle is a better summary.

This is as empty as saying trade unions caused it. Does Japan not have MBAs? It's all about comparative advantage.
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