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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#911

Post by realusername »

Mikho wrote: post #714

The real problem with the Apple Tax — it ruins value-chain and makes it uneconomical For every value created a customer receives there is value captured by a company paid by this customer. Let's say a company creates a service valued as 1X by the customer and the customer pays 1X for that. This balance guarantees accessibility and interest among many customers. Apple tax demands for a customer to pay 1.43X for the sa…

> Imagine what a decrease in purchases a product gets if its price is increased by 43%. This ruins all economic assumptions of a business.

That's exactly why the apps succeeding financially on the play store and app store are casino-like games.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#912

Post by malshe »

stefandesu wrote: post #416
malshe wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a few vendors who sell on Amazon. With advertising, they end up paying close to 60% of the selling price to Amazon.

How can Amazon pricing be so competitive if the cut is so large for third-party vendors?

It's a myth that Amazon's prices are competitive. One vendor I know sells his product through Shopify at a steep discount compared to Amazon and yet most of his revenue comes from Amazon. Amazon benefits from multiple things including their brand image as a competitively priced store, consumer trust, brand awareness, Amazon Prime members who get shipping "free", massive user data, etc.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#913

Post by nodamage »

kelnos wrote: post #485
nodamage wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Therefore Apple App store is a monopoly. Not under US law according to the very court case being discussed. Why are people still making this claim when the judge literally concluded otherwise and then a panel of appeals court judges confirmed her ruling?

Because it's not unreasonable to disagree with the law. The judges may be applying it correctly, and correctly following the process for determining that the market is all mobile apps, and not just iOS mobile apps, but it's reasonable for people to disagree with that on first principles.

The legal definition of a monopoly has been refined over multiple decades of case law, I would argue that you can’t have a meaningful discussion about whether a company is or isn’t a monopoly without framing it in that context. And yes while it’s reasonable to disagree with the details of the law, it’s another thing entirely to make up some arbitrary criteria in your head and then declare some company is a monopoly based on your imaginary criteria.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#914

Post by nodamage »

tristan957 wrote: post #906
nodamage wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Therefore Apple App store is a monopoly. Not under US law according to the very court case being discussed. Why are people still making this claim when the judge literally concluded otherwise and then a panel of appeals court judges confirmed her ruling?

Why do people still think that OJ is a murderer? Courts get rulings wrong all the time. How many times has someone on death row been exonerated for a crime? The App Store is a monopoly by definition. It is the only form of app distribution to 100% of iPhone users. Going further, it is the only form of app distribution to greater than 50% of the US market. Vertical integration is a very valid argument to make here, sa…

> The App Store is a monopoly by definition. It is the only form of app distribution to 100% of iPhone users.

That’s not how monopolies are defined under US law, so no it’s not, by definition.

It’s always possible to define an arbitrarily narrow market such that one company owns 100% of it. The legal definition of a monopoly requires specific criteria to be met which have not been met in this case.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#915

Post by freeAgent »

evanmoran wrote: post #890
gretch wrote: post #876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applaud you taking personal action and voting with your wallet / dev cycles. > it ruins value-chain and makes it uneconomical This is empirically not true. If the value-chain is so 'ruined' and 'uneconomical'. Why are there so many iOS devs? Lots of people are participating in the system and lots of people are getting rich. Examples of truly uneconomical ecosystems are Windows Phone and Blackberry - which is why al…

I don't believe you're accurate. All apps that could charge money through Apple payments stopped doing so long ago and now are "free" with an external subscription or ads: Netflix, Amazon Prime, Microsoft Office, Slack, Google Docs/Drive, Dropbox, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Hey Email, etc. Only free-to-play games / gambling / scam apps stayed in the App Store, and the rest are gone.

It’s also worth noting that the “developers” who are able to escape this all need Apple’s permission and Apple almost exclusively grants permission to megacorps that could single-handedly hurt Apple’s business were they to protest. Smaller (which in this case doesn’t necessarily mean “small”) players are still locked in. This has the effect of further entrenching Big Tech since they can escape the confiscatory Apple tax while smaller competitors cannot.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#916

Post by dev_tty01 »

mmcnl wrote: post #907
Mikho wrote: post #714

The real problem with the Apple Tax — it ruins value-chain and makes it uneconomical For every value created a customer receives there is value captured by a company paid by this customer. Let's say a company creates a service valued as 1X by the customer and the customer pays 1X for that. This balance guarantees accessibility and interest among many customers. Apple tax demands for a customer to pay 1.43X for the sa…

It depends on what you consider "value". Apple would argue the distribution through the App Store is part of the value chain. I think the real issue here is that Apple demands 30% always. 30% might be the "distribution value" for small indie devs, but it probably decreases once the developer is big enough and their products are well known (Epic/Fortnite, Spotify). Then it becomes just a tax that indeed skews the pric…

Most, if not all, small indie devs pay 15%. Everyone pays 15% for subscriptions after the first year.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#917

Post by CatWChainsaw »

DeathArrow wrote: post #507

Unfortunately we only have to pick between iOS and Android devices. Android devices are generally less expensive and maybe you have more freedom in some particular situations. Apple devices have better CPUs. What I would like to see instead is more competition in the OS market and the hardware to be like PCs: you buy whatever device you like and install whatever software you want from wherever you want.

Sadly Apple's competition in computer OS is Microsoft, and Microsoft saw everything Apple has been doing and thought it was a great idea...

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#918

Post by dlubarov »

mmcnl wrote: post #907
Mikho wrote: post #714

The real problem with the Apple Tax — it ruins value-chain and makes it uneconomical For every value created a customer receives there is value captured by a company paid by this customer. Let's say a company creates a service valued as 1X by the customer and the customer pays 1X for that. This balance guarantees accessibility and interest among many customers. Apple tax demands for a customer to pay 1.43X for the sa…

It depends on what you consider "value". Apple would argue the distribution through the App Store is part of the value chain. I think the real issue here is that Apple demands 30% always. 30% might be the "distribution value" for small indie devs, but it probably decreases once the developer is big enough and their products are well known (Epic/Fortnite, Spotify). Then it becomes just a tax that indeed skews the pric…

I think it's useful to separate these scenarios -

1. A user knows they want to install a certain app; they do so using the app store since that's the only method Apple allows.

2. A user discovers an app while browsing the App Store, but Apple isn't involved beyond that.

3. A user discovers an app through Apple's marketing, e.g. from WWDC.

With (1), it feels very unfair for Apple to charge 30% just to essentially get out of the way. It's not too far off from Apple threatening to block websites from Safari unless they agree to a ransom payment.

With (2), Apple did refer the customer in some sense, but it still feels unfair in a way since the user was essentially forced to use their App Store for discovery.

With (3), at least Apple is putting in some kind of work (specific to the app) rather than purely rent seeking. Still feels morally questionable since developers have no choice to opt out, though.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#919

Post by calamari4065 »

sholladay wrote: post #903
sangnoir wrote: post #896

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To add, I'm not sure what legal basis there is for "you're charging too much" Anti-price-gauging laws have already been ruled as constitutional, so there is case law for "You're charging too much"

But overpriced goods and services are fairly common and accepted in the marketplace. Gucci handbags, houses, TurboTax, any product or service at a car dealership… The 30% App Store tax does suck but I’ve never understood why it’s singled out. My best guess is that people hate platforms because it’s a 3-way transaction, which makes everything harder, including price negotiation. And also the service isn’t particularly…

30% is a lot, but it's particularly egregious when your one and only option is to pay 30% to Apple, who is doing everything in their power to make sure it remains your only option. Apple is a monopoly in this specific scenario, and setting the fee so high comes off as a "fuck you, try and stop me" kind of move.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#920

Post by insane_dreamer »

I see the App Store no different than any retailer. If you want to sell your products in WalMart, then you agree to their terms (which happen to be quite onerous), and they set the price that they want. If you don't like it, you don't have to sell your product in Walmart. You can still sell it at Target (if you agree to their terms), etc., or you can try to open your own store and try to reach your target customers directly (and incur the related costs of doing so).
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