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China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

nytimes.com

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Re: China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

#11

Post by thmsths »

MR4D wrote: post #10
thmsths wrote: post #6

I have come the conclusion that kids have basically gone from asset to liability over the last century. And even if they may not express it in these terms or have hard numbers to back it up, people know this intuitively. In the 1920s there was no social security so having kids to take care of you in your old days was a must, expectations were somewhat low. You could get a lot of kids because making them all share one…

> kids have basically gone from asset to liability over the last century This has happened in virtually every country that has moved from the farms to the cities. In farms, kids are added labor - in the city, not so much.

Totally agree, I am not trying to single out specific countries. Now we just need to figure out how to deal with the consequences of that, because so far we have only been relying on bandaids: exhort people to have more kids, offer subsidies (that don't even come close to offsetting the extra costs of course), making it up with immigration.

Re: China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

#12

Post by thehappypm »

beaeglebeached wrote: post #5

Raising kids absolutely sucks 99.9% of the time. Society is constantly riding your ass demanding you follow their every law, desire, and regulation and if you do it right no one gives a shit other than to milk the kid dry in taxes for being raised to be productive. If you do it wrong, well there's a jail cell waiting and you lose all your friends and family and live in terrible guilt. The kid, well perhaps rightly th…

I have a 1-year old and I think, so far, it has sucked about 10% of the time, max.

Re: China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

#13

Post by imacomputer »

beaeglebeached wrote: post #5

Raising kids absolutely sucks 99.9% of the time. Society is constantly riding your ass demanding you follow their every law, desire, and regulation and if you do it right no one gives a shit other than to milk the kid dry in taxes for being raised to be productive. If you do it wrong, well there's a jail cell waiting and you lose all your friends and family and live in terrible guilt. The kid, well perhaps rightly th…

I don't know man, I know it sounds cliche, but kids were one of the best things that "accidentally" happened to me.

Its really not as bad as most people make it out to be. I even got 2 for 1 type deal. Sure there are bad days, but most are good.

And maybe someday, when the money is gone, and the pensions are one fire, they will take care of me.

Re: China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

#14

Post by supertofu »

I can see no benefit at all to having children in this day. Parents are expected to engage with their child at all times, and it's no longer socially acceptable to let a child roam the neighborhood as it was when I was a kid. In the US, job insecurity and ridiculous costs of living make having a child a financial burden.

The pure physical risk of birth in a healthcare system that does not support postpartum healthcare in any way does not seem worth it.

Re: China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

#15

Post by imacomputer »

I see both side of the equation here honestly... fyi I have kids, the two for one deal.

On one side, kids are tough. It is a commitment, if you are used to a certain lifestyle of travel and individual activities things are going to get significantly tough. Not impossible, but it will probably be different to accommodate others needs. On top of that my wife career has been pushed aside for a few years to help the kids before kindergarten starts. There is a financial burden, even with state benefits if you are educated (I live in the EU). I see why so many people don't have kids, it just isn't worth it for them.

At the same time, kids are great and I have no regrets even though we are parenting them through the "terrible twos". I love them so much, they are a driving force in my life. I find it somewhat scary that I had a child free mindset in uni. On top of that I have increasing skepticism about pensions going into the future... there is just too many old people around. What money is going to be left when I get old? _probably none_. The kids are my backup plan, of course I cant count on them, its their life too, but those chances are better than the possibility of dying alone in some cheap care facility or worse.

I may sounds biased because I would benefit from such a scheme, but if governments _want_ kids for economic stability, then make it worth it for parents to have kids! The pressure to work now days is exhausting for society, like cutting down a forest without planting new trees.

Re: China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

#16

Post by [deleted] »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #8
thmsths wrote: post #6

I have come the conclusion that kids have basically gone from asset to liability over the last century. And even if they may not express it in these terms or have hard numbers to back it up, people know this intuitively. In the 1920s there was no social security so having kids to take care of you in your old days was a must, expectations were somewhat low. You could get a lot of kids because making them all share one…

Not saying you're wrong, but I really think you've overlooked the cultural shift towards individualism. Maybe not so much in the 1920s, but in WW1 men would lie about their age so they'd have the opportunity to fight for the empire. Family, nation and duty came before self-actualisation and security.

[deleted]

Re: China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

#17

Post by toomuchtodo »

thehappypm wrote: post #12
beaeglebeached wrote: post #5

Raising kids absolutely sucks 99.9% of the time. Society is constantly riding your ass demanding you follow their every law, desire, and regulation and if you do it right no one gives a shit other than to milk the kid dry in taxes for being raised to be productive. If you do it wrong, well there's a jail cell waiting and you lose all your friends and family and live in terrible guilt. The kid, well perhaps rightly th…

I have a 1-year old and I think, so far, it has sucked about 10% of the time, max.

I have two toddlers and it has sucked more than it hasn’t (~7 years). ymmv, n=1, all that jazz. Roughly 8-17% of the population regrets having kids (depending on study [1]), and a substantial cohort simply doesn’t want them [2], so it’s not for everyone.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8294566/

[2] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/19/growing-s...

Re: China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

#18

Post by MangoCoffee »

thmsths wrote: post #6

I have come the conclusion that kids have basically gone from asset to liability over the last century. And even if they may not express it in these terms or have hard numbers to back it up, people know this intuitively. In the 1920s there was no social security so having kids to take care of you in your old days was a must, expectations were somewhat low. You could get a lot of kids because making them all share one…

>kids have basically gone from asset to liability

Peter Zeihan said the same thing. we need kids when the majority of society works on farms. today's kids are more expensive and less helpful.

China is following the same path as the Asian Tigers (Taiwan, South Korea...etc.) and Japan as the Chinese got more wealth. Chinese are unwilling to have more kids plus the One Child policy works too well.

Re: China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

#19

Post by kwere »

MR4D wrote: post #10
thmsths wrote: post #6

I have come the conclusion that kids have basically gone from asset to liability over the last century. And even if they may not express it in these terms or have hard numbers to back it up, people know this intuitively. In the 1920s there was no social security so having kids to take care of you in your old days was a must, expectations were somewhat low. You could get a lot of kids because making them all share one…

> kids have basically gone from asset to liability over the last century This has happened in virtually every country that has moved from the farms to the cities. In farms, kids are added labor - in the city, not so much.

In Victorian England children were still an asset to rent to industries and mining operations

Re: China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

#20

Post by alephnan »

thmsths wrote: post #6

I have come the conclusion that kids have basically gone from asset to liability over the last century. And even if they may not express it in these terms or have hard numbers to back it up, people know this intuitively. In the 1920s there was no social security so having kids to take care of you in your old days was a must, expectations were somewhat low. You could get a lot of kids because making them all share one…

> go to a good college (that you're expected to help pay for)

Either don’t send your kids to college or don’t expect society to pay for them then

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