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The Rust project has a burnout problem

jyn.dev

101–110 of 258 posts

Re: The Rust project has a burnout problem

#101
post #3

This is a good description of what life is like working on almost any significant open source project. The only thing not included was the comments from overly entitled users that saps whatever morale and energy you have left. Probably best he did not include that though as that is what all discussion would be about. I am not sure what to do about the burnout problem. The way he described it is very on point though.…

> I think they also encourage drive-by contributions

I realize I am in minority, but for me, if project uses a mailing list I am more likely to do a drive-by contribution (compared to no contribution at all). Just doing git send-email is much easier compared to figuring out how to create whatever pull request is called in whatever forge the specific project is using.

Re: The Rust project has a burnout problem

#102
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my shift key is there i just have conscientiously objected to it

It comes across as saying "fuck you" to your readers.

FWIW, not to me. Variety is the spice of life. It’s their blog, they should use whatever style they feel like using.

Besides, is lowercase poetry a fuck you to the reader as well?

Re: The Rust project has a burnout problem

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% understand why veterinarians are in a crisis. We had to let our pupper go a few weeks ago. The vet had to basically sit there and watch us while we processed the fact that we were about to pay her to kill our best friend. For us, it was the worst day we had experienced in years . For her, it was Tuesday. She had other people waiting in the room next door, and had to go from solemn to bright and cheery over the…

Is cloning your dog in Korea out of the question? I have read some articles about people who did it. Yes, it is very expensive.

The original dog would still die, no? Having a puppy with technically the same genes but none of the behaviors or memories of the original seems like a very poor substitute.

Re: The Rust project has a burnout problem

#104
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking something along the lines of people who tend to set unusually high standards for themselves. Rust has something of a self-image of always being best-of-breed in everything it attempts, so I could believe that it might be particularly attractive to those sorts. Other possibilities might be that Rust developers skew younger than average (I don't know whether that's true), or that its six-week release cyc…

rust definitely skews younger than average. i don't have statistics on hand, but almost all people i know working on the project are younger than 35, and a surprising number are 17-25

[deleted]

Re: The Rust project has a burnout problem

#105
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes. I wonder if an OSS project should set forth a time budget in some way? Hard to “enforce” though. And goes counter to wanting contributors to feel free to contribute on their terms.

The best I’ve seen is have additional contributors (often who just like the project but aren’t coders themselves) who run interference for the dev team. They can triage feature requests, filter out the spam and repeat issues, etc. Also, and this can be the hard part, is sometimes you have to have someone who (even politely!) can be a bit of a dick when necessary. People scan be quite entitled and want to boss everyon…

> People scan be quite entitled and want to boss everyone around and tell them the project is run wrong - if you don’t actively run at least some of them off the devs will curl up and disappear.

As an Eastern European I always found fascinating how many Westerners are struggling hard with this. To me and many of my peers (and apparently to Linus Torvalds and a good chunk of the entire Nordic culture, probably?) it's the easiest thing in the world to say something like:

"Listen up dickhead, I do this in my free time. If you don't like the direction of the project or the urgency with which your issues are [not] being addressed, you are free to not use it, and it also costs you nothing to not comment at all. I got better things to do than to reply to entitled cunts, now piss off."

It's very amusing what a huge drama many Westerners make out of just... being direct. Honest. Straight to the point.

"But he won't ever contribute and he might infect others with the opinion that the project leaderships is toxic!"

OK. That's a price I am willing to pay. My mental health > the second-hand opinion of people who were only 0.1% likely to contribute anyway. The math is very easy yet so many Westerners struggle so much with these [to me and many] mega obvious solutions, like "be a bit of a dick when necessary".

This is really very similar to the discussions I had with a lot of women long time ago. It goes like this: they tell me:

"I have to go tell X and Y about event A because otherwise Z will tell them lies and they'll think something wrong about me."

To which I reply with a cold expression: "Then you don't need X and Y in your life, if they can be so easily influenced by lies and won't even ask you about what truly happened."

Their expressions were priceless. The cognitive dissonance can hit us all VERY hard.

Back to the topic at hand, yes, I firmly believe all open-contribution projects need a Linus type of person. It's also a fact that many devs are introverted and can be chased away by entitled and insolent loud people. So somebody must put a shield in front of the devs.

Re: The Rust project has a burnout problem

#106
post #70
post #3

This is a good description of what life is like working on almost any significant open source project. The only thing not included was the comments from overly entitled users that saps whatever morale and energy you have left. Probably best he did not include that though as that is what all discussion would be about. I am not sure what to do about the burnout problem. The way he described it is very on point though.…

If I understand you properly, in the mailing list days, did EVERYONE get the email when someone sent in patches?

Yes. The way to make it work is to use fiters in your mailclient. All mail to dev@ goes to its own folder, all mail to discussion@ to its own folder, all mail to support@ to its own folder. You only look there when you feel like it. Your inbox is not having all this noise.

Re: The Rust project has a burnout problem

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, hey! Thanks for chiming in. It's rare to see rejection of grammar rules on longer forms of writing, so it looked interesting. Any special reasons? Just because I like to know people through their choices and views. Didn't want to sound rude in the previous comment, so if I did, genuinely sorry (non-native speaker woes).

two reasons: 1. writing in lowercase is freeing. it reminds me that grammatical rules are arbitrary, and by extension other rules. "you can just do things." 2. people who are pedantic about this when it's clearly intentional are probably not people i want to interact with anyway, so it's a good anti-asshole filter ( https://siderea.dreamwidth.org/1209794.html )

That's interesting take, thanks. I'd love to chat with you further on this issue, but this is neither the place, nor the time. Maybe I'll mail you about this in the soon-ish future if that's OK for you.

Cheers!

Re: The Rust project has a burnout problem

#108
post #44
post #3

This is a good description of what life is like working on almost any significant open source project. The only thing not included was the comments from overly entitled users that saps whatever morale and energy you have left. Probably best he did not include that though as that is what all discussion would be about. I am not sure what to do about the burnout problem. The way he described it is very on point though.…

> This is a good description of what life is like working on almost any significant open source project. Open contributions project. An open source project does not necessarily have to accept random contributions, issues or hatemail from the general public. [1] They just need to make the source available with a permissive licence, period. I believe that Linux with its idiosyncrasies in its communication model (mailin…

Github marketplace has a close pull request action[1].

You also need to close issues after a set amount of inactivity[2].

If there is a bug without a CVE, or a feature someone wants fixed that users don't want to submit a fix for themselves AFTER it has been discussed with the maintainer in an issue with a replication or strawman proposal and the owner has created a draft pr and asked you to work on it, it probably needs to come with a Patreon donation[3]. This can help alleviate maintainer burnout by allowing the maintainer to hire someone to make the contribution.

A software shop wouldn't operate without some kind of iterative plan. Large open source projects with single maintainers shouldn't either. Scheduling 1 or 2 hours a week for issue triage, hosted in an online meeting, and limiting WIP in terms of open PRs to be discussed during this triage meeting should allow for both community interaction and strong governance for the project and prevent burnout for the maintainer.

All of this can be placed into the Readme or Contributor guide and a CLA that contributors have to sign.

Otherwise, people can fork and maintain the project themselves.

If you want to prevent flame wars, or demotivating comments, something like a comment sentiment analysis app[4] might even be a good idea to add to your project. There are plenty of models available that you can delegate to for this in the wild, and it's worth automating moderation to prevent burnout.

Finally, really toxic users can and should be banned[5]. It's not worth it to deal with anonymous negative contributors all the time.

1. https://github.com/marketplace/actions/close-pull-request

2. https://github.com/marketplace/actions/issue-triage

3. https://github.blog/changelog/2023-10-03-sponsor-projects-th...

4. https://github.com/marketplace/comment-sentiment-analyzer

5. https://docs.github.com/en/communities/maintaining-your-safe...

Re: The Rust project has a burnout problem

#109
I was the original author of an open-source, server-based, federated, infrastructure system, that has become fairly ubiquitous, for the demographic that it Serves.

But it didn't start off that way. I shepherded it -almost entirely alone- for a decade, before I found a dedicated, motivated team that I trusted to take it over.

They have done wonders for it. Most of its explosive expansion has taken off, under their watch.

Walking away from it was the best thing that I could do for it. The last thing these folks need, is a "Benevolent Dictator," peering over their shoulders, and giving suggestions.

During the gestation decade, I had to be a not-so-benevolent dictator, many times, as people tried to take it over, change it to suit narrow sub-demographics (at the expense of everyone else), and even change its entire raison d'etre. I got a ton of pretty vicious hate mail and there are people that still hate me (I cry myself to sleep over that, every night), after a decade. In one instance, I had to wait until one nasty old bastard popped his clogs, before I could spread it to the entire Pacific Northwest.

During that time, I learned how not to behave. A lot of that hate, was because I'm actually pretty good at slapping back, but I really needed to learn diplomacy. Even when they are nasty, and we are right, we often need to just swallow our pride, and let the dervishes whirl.

I don't miss working on it, and I'm really glad the new team are doing so good with it. I suspect there's very little of my original code in it, but the team mindset is still very much what I established.

I am about to release a project that actually uses that infrastructure as a feeder to my backend.

Re: The Rust project has a burnout problem

#110
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think this is partially true, but i hesitate to call people zombies. the vast majority of people in the rust project are competent and engaged. the problem is they have different priorities and collaboration is hard when everything is bottom up. i have some more thoughts on this here: https://tech.lgbt/@jyn/111771440884089084

> i think this is partially true, but i hesitate to call people zombies. To clarify, I was more responding from the perspective of the workplace rather than the Rust project. That said, I have been an open source contributor off and on since 2003 and my observation has been the situation isn’t much different. In a project, rather than apathetic coworkers, you deal with users of the project that have complaints and ex…

i agree! i hadn't realized you were talking about people who weren't already team members. they're usually well-meaning, but it's true that some drain a lot of contributor time on things that aren't important.

rust has a conflict avoidance problem. i think rust could be much more effective at saying no, and saying it more quickly. i want to talk about that in my next blog post.

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