Earlier quoted context omitted.
The whole point is is that it’s not fake, it feels fake to us, and we (I’m Dutch) are not rude, it feels rude to Americans. We value different things. They are trying to be nice by making compliments, we try to connect by being brutally honest (orthogonal but both positive?). I can tell you our Dutch waiters can learn a thing or two from their US counterparts about service (well maybe it’s also because we hardly tip,…
tipping in my opinion is rather rude. as a bussiness, you are basically asking for a handout to make the lives of your waiting staff bearable. In my opinion this mean you should not run a business. Why would i tip someone when they do their job? Should we do this for all jobs? (the same goes for the military in my opinion).
Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)
71–80 of 135 posts
Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's opportunity cost. New Yorkers making $300,000 feel the twinge of lost time much more acutely than, say, the average Minnesotan making $30,000. Indeed, in most countries, you'll notice the dialect of the capital city of the prominent language contains a lot more clipped and shortened words than the rural dialects tend to. This happens here in Finland - Helsinkians speak a much more abbreviation heavy Finnish than…
Huh, why is this downvoted? In the Netherlands, efficiency is part of communicaton, especially in cities. In more rural places people connect a bit more and take time for eachother. These are different rules. And yes, sometimes Dutch people are rude because they like to be. Different people, different strokes.
> Huh, why is this downvoted?
Because tying it to salary seems pseudo-scentific and rather snobbish (but happy to be corrected if there is solid science backing it). Are rich people generally more direct than poor people within a culture? Not in my experience.
The distinction between urban and rural is valid in my experience. But the urban poor tend to be on the same side of this divide as the urban rich.
(edit: Just to be clear, I didn't downvote it)
Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)
#73So which is it? Do you want fake civility or sincere rudeness?
The author is a cultural psychologist, and trying to explain that people's emotions should be seen in the context of (and I would say are "relative to") the culture they're from. Someone is only fake if they're more fake than their cultural norms, and someone is only rude if they're more rude than their cultural norms. I would argue this also means people aren't objectively fake or rude, it's all relative, and so neither is objectively better or worse.
Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interestingly I became aware of a similar cultural difference regarding punctuation: I frequently use three dots ‚…‘ in more informal emails at the end of a sentence to indicate that I am not sure about something yet or still wondering about it. Like „I guess we could discuss this tomorrow…“ or „Yeah, I might be able to do this…“ Some month ago an Italian PhD student of mine (I’m from Germany) asked me if I was upset…
I think the ellipses have that connotation in a lot of places and kind of like with all-caps and exclamation marks, it doesn't seem as strongly connected to culture. Some of my Indian friends use it the same way as you do, which often throws off some of my American friends, who interpret it as impatience, and vice versa.
A nice Indian lady I used to work with was horrified when I pointed out that her use of the "eye rolling" emoji is seen as rude and dismissive by lots of people.
It's always worth being aware of these differences if you can be and also giving people the benefit of the doubt too.
Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)
#75American living in America. I've encountered all types of people. Some are taciturn, some are very direct, some dance around the subject for fear of offending, some are excessively friendly. We're a mix of cultures and I don't think you can say that all or even most Americans have the same social/emotional tendencies.
Nowhere in American is asking “how are you today” to a cashier abnormal. But the article suggests that it is indeed abnormal from a a Dutch perspective. There are distinctly American customs and cultures that Europeans would look as stereotypically American.
asking someone how they are in the netherlands is considered a genuine question about someone's wellbeing, and is considered very out of place if you don't know the person. (a cashier for instance).
Also, when asking this, expect a real response back.
Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)
#76The few Dutch folks I know are indeed kind of rude. One time I (Brazilian) went out to get some drinks with some Dutch friends and, omg, they spent the whole night trashing other people. I am accostumed to do it in a much more delicate way, while they didn't hold it back for a second.
Your singular experience may not be representative of all Dutch...
Yeah, maybe. I guess what stood out the most was not exactly the trashing part (which we all do some way or another), but how they didn't feel the need to soften the words. Since I was the only one who seemed a bit shocked by that, I thought that was perhaps cultural.
Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interestingly I became aware of a similar cultural difference regarding punctuation: I frequently use three dots ‚…‘ in more informal emails at the end of a sentence to indicate that I am not sure about something yet or still wondering about it. Like „I guess we could discuss this tomorrow…“ or „Yeah, I might be able to do this…“ Some month ago an Italian PhD student of mine (I’m from Germany) asked me if I was upset…
Hate to break it to you, but it has the same subtext here in Germany
Hmm, interesting. I really wonder how I could miss this all my life.
(Would have made them here as well, but not anymore)
Edit: spelling
Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)
#78As someone who recently moved from The Netherlands to USA, I found this article to be really great at explaining the reason why many Europeans find Americans to be fake. I myself had experienced all of the social experiences the author talked about, and found myself confused as to what a "friend" was in The USA. I also find it very interesting how the author described emotions as cultured - not just something which w…
There is a huge different between a blue collar New Yorker and a Palo Alto techie in culture though. I’ll take the nyc rudeness over the fake politeness in California. As a European I fund New Yorkers much easier to connect and befriend people than people from both the pacific coast.
Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)
#79> When my son’s teacher told my mom she was being appreciated as a grandmother, she emphasized that my mom was special to her grandchildren— a domain over which she could claim to have some authority, being the teacher of my son. This is not fake at all: it is just a feeling that comes from a focus on those features or accomplishments that would give the other person reason to feel good about themselves. You are a wo…
I think it can be reasonably believed that the teacher must've meant it. She doesn't know the grandmother, but she does know the kids, and kids tend to be fairly open about excitedly telling their friends that their grandma is visiting. Eg my niece's teachers know she really enjoys it when I visit despite never having met me because she draws me often.
It can also just be seen as an appreciation towards the grandmother for being there enough for the kids to come to the meeting.
Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
>I do believe that Americans are trained since an early age to display at all times that they're not a threat Interesting. Since I'm the fish who can't see the water, could you provide me with some examples of this?
Just look at how some primates use an abundance of facial muscles to establish they're not a threat. Or how having the local accent can show you are not an invader. The sing-songy greetings,the smiles, etc, can be read as demonstrations that you are not a threat. Americans have to do that in almost all times and contexts.
This is an interesting point, but I think the reason for it is a little different than you're suggesting.
When I was younger and would go hiking or climbing in Scotland and Wales, I would definitely have to be quite mindful of "showing I was not a threat" when entering small village stores and pubs there.
The more densely and contiguously populated and area is, the easier it is to (a) feel a part of the "in group" (b) not feel aware of the difference between "insiders" and "outsiders".
My experience is that the behavior you describe in Americans is roughly proportional to population density and tourism levels. Areas with lots of people and/or lots of visitors do not require this "low threat establishment". Areas with less people and/or less visitors often do so. I think this is true of Europe just as much as the USA, and I would guess it is probably the same worldwide.