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Htmx changes license to Zero-Clause BSD

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Re: Htmx changes license to Zero-Clause BSD

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the reason i did all this is for the lols Do the lols while you still can, the Trust and Safety departments at major social media companies want to extinguish funny. Everyone who does even a smidgen of memeing on the internet knows what happens when you post images of large spiders. People start talking about burning things down, like the entire building its inside of, etc. Someone posted a video where a little gir…

The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already cancelled. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a shiposter is supposed to function: without mercy, without anxiety, without remorse. All shiposting depends upon it.

We happy few, we band of brothers.

Re: Htmx changes license to Zero-Clause BSD

#92
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

may you and the people relying on you never have to rely on the maintainers taking things more seriously than they've shown themselves to in their public positioning

HTMX has existed for nearly a decade (prev. intercoolerjs); 1cg has proven to be extremely invested in it, and the whole philosophy around it in general (even being in charge of an "Hypermedia Research Group" at Montana university). To dismiss all of the credibility he has created with his work just because the guy wants to be funny on twitter is nothing short of stupid.

This appears to be the official account, not a personal one. If he wants me to take htmx seriously as a prod dependency, I care about how he treats it, all the way from code to governance to community interactions.

He has no such obligation to do these things, this is all his choice. I'm not sure why the contention? If you read my comment, it was strictly about production scenarios, not about all credibility for all scenarios. If this project is meant to be treated as fun CRAPL, Matthew Might made a great license for that: https://matt.might.net/articles/crapl/ .

Re: Htmx changes license to Zero-Clause BSD

#93
post #19
post #8

Is "zero-clause BSD" a joke, or is it considered a legitimate license? If the latter, does it actually differ from the MIT license in anything other than name?

it eschews attribution, making it just about the closest thing to a public-domain dedication that still retains the appropriate verbiage to hold up to legal scrutiny

In the US, simply saying "I hereby dedicate this work to the public domain." is as an effective, if not more effective, way to do that as any license. These licenses are just for countries like Germany that basically make it illegal to sell, gift, or release a copyright at all.

Re: Htmx changes license to Zero-Clause BSD

#94

background: - over the weekend I started making the @htmx_org twitter account increasingly corporate looking - started talking a lot about MSFT, implying they were interested in htmx - someone asked if MSFT was going to buy htmx: https://fxtwitter.com/htmx_org/status/1746656784088228204 - i then put up a post about changing the htmx license, implying i was going to restrict it due to MSFT interest: https://fxtwitter.…

Your lack of professional seriousness is truly astounding. One of the primary reasons we've gone with React/NextJS coupled with MongoDB and Kubernetes over HTMX

OK, I'll respond in a bit more detail to this, now that it's closer to the top. I'll assume you are being serious as well (always hard to tell online.)

I understand where you are coming from, the @htmx_org twitter account is very silly. This can be a big turn off to some developers and companies. On the other hand, I do have a fair number of serious essays on the htmx website (https://htmx.org/essays) and a free book that is also serious (https://hypermedia.systems).

I view twitter as a tool for getting the word out about htmx and, therefore, use it in that manner. I don't think that medium supports super-nuanced discussions (although I've had some.) I try to not be negative on it, and frequently link to my essays for more in-depth discussions. I also enjoy being funny and making people laugh.

And, while I can understand and sympathize with people who dislike the general vibe of my account, you can't argue with the success of this approach.

It has recently passed 27k stars on github:

https://star-history.com/#bigskysoftware/htmx&Date

And finished 2nd (!!!) in the js rising stars frameworks for 2023:

https://risingstars.js.org/2023/en#section-framework

Plus #10 overall. This is a library created by a one-person company that is trying to compete with the likes of Facebook, Google and Vercel when it comes to developer mindshare. While I would love to think it is the insightful essays, excellent coding ability and the quality of my book, there is no doubt that the twitter account has been a huge contributor to htmx's success.

Re: Htmx changes license to Zero-Clause BSD

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your lack of professional seriousness is truly astounding. One of the primary reasons we've gone with React/NextJS coupled with MongoDB and Kubernetes over HTMX

OK, I'll respond in a bit more detail to this, now that it's closer to the top. I'll assume you are being serious as well (always hard to tell online.) I understand where you are coming from, the @htmx_org twitter account is very silly. This can be a big turn off to some developers and companies. On the other hand, I do have a fair number of serious essays on the htmx website ( https://htmx.org/essays ) and a free bo…

I'm not OP, but I would like to think it's a joke. If they were actually turned off by your "lack of professionalism" they would like turn to Alpinejs before "React/NextJS coupled with MongoDB and Kubernetes" :) But who knows!

Re: Htmx changes license to Zero-Clause BSD

#96
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only applicable to private label items.

I used one of their 20% off coupons for a Simplehuman bin a while back (one of the ones with recycling on the left and trash on the right). Having said that, I don't think they actually take coupons any more. It stopped when all the physical stores closed. The offer here is a cash back offer, where you pay the full price then another company (like TopCashback, Rakuten, apparently Microsoft too) gives you 10% cash bac…

I always felt like “simplehuman” was the kind of brand name a condescending AI would come up with. “Simple human, buy this trash can and I will sell you overpriced, custom-fitting trash bags forever!”

Re: Htmx changes license to Zero-Clause BSD

#97

The state of software licenses makes me a bit sad. On the one hand we have open source licenses like the MIT and Apache 2.0 licenses that give corporations free reign to enclose and exploit the software commons without any real limit or any requirement to give back to the things they are getting rich off of, and then on the other hand we have the GPL and LGPL licenses which are too aggressive and stringent, while als…

I don't understand the view that MIT and Apache 2.0 make it possible for corporations to somehow destroy or enclose the commons. Code is code. It can't be destroyed, its cost of duplication is effectively zero. If I take some open source code, add my changes and distribute a paid, closed-source, version, nothing has been removed/lost.

Certainly they make it hard/impossible to build a business from Open Source code. Unfortunately in an economic system designed to maximise the reward for value capture at the cost of value creators this is a common problem. But I believe the answer to that is more communism, not more licenses with more convoluted requirements creating jobs for legal departments for shared code.

Re: Htmx changes license to Zero-Clause BSD

#98
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HTMX has existed for nearly a decade (prev. intercoolerjs); 1cg has proven to be extremely invested in it, and the whole philosophy around it in general (even being in charge of an "Hypermedia Research Group" at Montana university). To dismiss all of the credibility he has created with his work just because the guy wants to be funny on twitter is nothing short of stupid.

This appears to be the official account, not a personal one. If he wants me to take htmx seriously as a prod dependency, I care about how he treats it, all the way from code to governance to community interactions. He has no such obligation to do these things, this is all his choice. I'm not sure why the contention? If you read my comment, it was strictly about production scenarios, not about all credibility for all…

I apologize for the contention - I misunderstood what your point was which made my writing a little too aggressive.

I still hold the position that the social media presence of the project should be inconsequential for considering it's production usage. But I can see your point now, even if I disagree.

Re: Htmx changes license to Zero-Clause BSD

#99
post #79
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a question, I don't pay much attention to politics, are the two related? are anti vaxers pro trump? The vaccine was developed on Trumps watch. I figured it was just like any other boss, takes all the credit if it works. desperately tries to shift blame if it does not.

It amuses me, personally, seeing the "antivax" crowd quickly being equalized to all the other various "bad" people - 20 years ago, there was a strong but quiet "antivax" crowd and it was definitely not made up of Trump or even R-leaning people. It was quite the "hippy liberal progressive" if you had to qualify it. But then again, twenty years ago you had all sorts of political positions you could take, now everything…

It doesn’t sound it like it amuses you. You sound kind of miffed off about it.

Re: Htmx changes license to Zero-Clause BSD

#100

The state of software licenses makes me a bit sad. On the one hand we have open source licenses like the MIT and Apache 2.0 licenses that give corporations free reign to enclose and exploit the software commons without any real limit or any requirement to give back to the things they are getting rich off of, and then on the other hand we have the GPL and LGPL licenses which are too aggressive and stringent, while als…

I don't understand the view that MIT and Apache 2.0 make it possible for corporations to somehow destroy or enclose the commons. Code is code. It can't be destroyed, its cost of duplication is effectively zero. If I take some open source code, add my changes and distribute a paid, closed-source, version, nothing has been removed/lost. Certainly they make it hard/impossible to build a business from Open Source code. U…

> I don't understand the view that MIT and Apache 2.0 make it possible for corporations to somehow destroy or enclose the commons. Code is code. It can't be destroyed, its cost of duplication is effectively zero. If I take some open source code, add my changes and distribute a paid, closed-source, version, nothing has been removed/lost.

You are technically correct in this, and technically speaking perhaps I should have put what I said in terms of the free rider problem, not necessarily enclosure of the commons, but two things: first, I do think what corporations do with open source software is to some degree more analogous to such an enclosure, since in a free rider problem we typically imagine a few or even very large number of lazy individuals just not paying for something, whereas in the enclosure of the commons it is the rich and large corporations benefiting from the work of more common folk, and the power dynamics of what happens in software look more like the latter than the former. Second, you're forgetting embrace, extend, extinguish, which very much does have the effect of destroying things by commercial cooption and absorbtion.

> Certainly they make it hard/impossible to build a business from Open Source code. Unfortunately in an economic system designed to maximise the reward for value capture at the cost of value creators this is a common problem. But I believe the answer to that is more communism, not more licenses with more convoluted requirements creating jobs for legal departments for shared code.

I sort of view licenses that require contributing any improvements you've made to something back to the collective pool from which you got it as a form of communism, even if in this case it is embedded in and enforced by a capitalist system.

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