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Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

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Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#61
post #38

Study in the EU (free) and take a job in the US ($$$).

Where would studying in the EU be free? Not only do you have to live somehow, but most universities have tuition fees, and they are higher for non-EU-residents.

I guess Germany and a bunch of countries with no or low tuition per year? Definitely not UK, universities there went crazy. Paying 1k EUR per semester is technically not free but close enough. Stipends are also often available for foreign students, especially when from desired minorities (e.g. Africa).

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#62

> Got a near full-tuition scholarship from a T200 public university to study undergrad in the US. US public universities give scholarships to non citizens?

Not the large state schools, but some that don't get enough students do based on your academic profile. In FL or TX, your out-of-state tuition is removed if you get other merit scholarships above a certain amount, so it ends up compounding.

I think the taxpayers would be pleased to take the $20k I'm spending there relative to the $12k or so that's spent on my scholarship?

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#63
I'm just a random dude on Hacker News, but I would suggest college. You can always change your mind and go back into the Industry, and you will be working your whole life. There is also more to college than education, especially for a young man like yourself. Think of it as practicing your professional Networking skills.

> The traditional wisdom that I'd read repeatedly until last year was job experience triumphs college and the opportunity cost is not worth it.

If you were taking on loans that might be the case. But in your case, you have a scholarship that tilts the opportunity cost.

To take a swipe at some conventional wisdom, yes experience does trump college eventually. But like a lot of things involving experience, people (like employers) only value it after you have it. Our profession is unique in that you can hack your way around college, but that is itself experience and you are competing with many others that are hacking that as well.

It is true that after a decade your college degree won't stand out as much, but when you don't have much experience a degree gives you a boost.

> startup

That's all you had to say. That is a large risk in these economic times even for experienced developers. I would look at this job with the same jaundiced eye as Silicon Valley equity options, and have a backup plan when things go sideways.

FWIW, I dropped out of college, worked for a while, and then went back to college. From my perspective it was worth the cost.

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#64

The us is the greatest country in earth for risk taking, failing and then succeeding. If you see yourself having that in you, by all means us is the only way. If you want to just chill and not have high highs but just let the govt take care of you, go to Europe.

This is honest an American centric attitude. to flip it on it's head. If you get ill or injured in the us you could be more than the $20K in debt for hospital bills. Whereas Europe has healthcare that will not take away everything you have. Also there is the fact that America is extremely anti-immigration at the moment.

You'll struggle to see a doctor in a lot of Europe. The NHS in England has wait times of years for doctors visits. The Tory government are trying to move England towards a health insurance scheme.

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#65
I have a relatable path that I hope to help you with your choice. Don't let others influence you too much and make your own decisions yourself.

I'm a foreigner also living in Berlin, I have moved from a third-world country here almost a decade ago, but already had graduated and had worked a few years. Back then, having a recognized university diploma helped me get my visa processed. With the new German immigration reform, this shouldn't be a problem anymore. Nowadays I'm waiting on my citizenship, it feels great!

I've also tried to get into the States, but oh boy, the work visa, the lottery, and the COST suck. My wife wouldn't be able to work there. Healthcare and public services are utter garbage. There are much better immigration laws here in Germany, and you are already on your path to citizenship (in case you want to live in the EU).

You need to decide whether you want to shoot big and hopefully win big (US). I'm supposing you don't have rich parents and kind of need to do most things on your own and support yourself, so failure on those plans would be a big setback. If it isn't the case, I'd favour going to the US.

But if you are kind of just scraping by (like I was), Europe. Europe is the best.

Building a successful life in the US supposes the job market will be good when you graduate as if you can't find a job there, you'll be out. Europe will still accept you, but you'll have wasted some money and time.

In your situation, I'd continue working and attending a Berlin university while you work at night. Go to a private one that offers it in English (I'm supposing you aren't fluent in German), those that you pay some bucks and get a degree.

Take good advantage of this time while you are young(20s) and build yourself a life, it may be 4 years that you need to only work/study, but it will be worth it. It's time to "build your base", doing this is much easier while you are in your 20s, later on, you'll likely meet with people and end up with your routines etc. Take advantage of this time to develop yourself.

People like seeing you have a degree when reading your CV, trust me. And in Europe not so many care if you graduate from a top university, unless you are from Harvard.

By choosing this, I'd sincerely consider asking some help from your parents to foot the bill of living in Europe and studying.

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#66
Optimize for learning, not for earning. In the tech field degrees matter now (you don’t see too many AI startups founded by high school students without degrees). If a University is a ticket to a funded tech startup or a tech co, go that route. Go to the geographic hub of the industry that you pick.

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#68
Yes, your pay in the United States would be much higher than you'd get paid in the same position in Europe. Taxes are also higher in Europe than in the US. It evens out a bit if you have dependents, or some other special circumstances. For a young person with no dependents or chronic medical conditions, financially US is going to be a much better choice.

That being said, you're not going to just automatically get a jr. dev position in the US right now. The layoffs have been brutal, and there are a lot of developers looking for jobs at the moment. I don't know how long the current conditions are going to last, but generally speaking a bad job market is the perfect time to go to school.

How confident are you about your startup employer's ability to operate? Startups are notoriously fickle. I would take a very hard look at the company, its funding, leaders and business idea before deciding to rely on them for enabling you to immigrate to Germany.

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#69

It comes down to preferences and priorities. The decision is personal. Here are some aids. US: + once you finish education, and if you start employment in tech sector, you get to make more money(I’d even dare to say more than 2x, considering taxes, geography etc). + for the tech sector, US is where the hotness is. More opportunities, fuel for ambition. + while single and young, US can get you a lot of disposable inco…

These are far too generic. The variance from state to state, or even parts of the same US state is humongous. Same for different European countries.

Traveling in Europe for a South Asian also isn't necessarily easy either. The wait times for getting a Schengen visa are pretty ridiculous right now. They are also much stricter about granting the visas these days than they used to (source: colleagues who've had months-long waiting times for visa appointments, and getting denied multiple times).

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#70

It comes down to preferences and priorities. The decision is personal. Here are some aids. US: + once you finish education, and if you start employment in tech sector, you get to make more money(I’d even dare to say more than 2x, considering taxes, geography etc). + for the tech sector, US is where the hotness is. More opportunities, fuel for ambition. + while single and young, US can get you a lot of disposable inco…

I think the lifestyle part depends a lot on where in the US OP would end up. Places like Boston and NYC are not car-dependent at all and most people you will meet are a normal weight and have a decent diet. There is also a ton of cultural diversity within NYC and lots of amazing food (especially if you have disposable income). Boston has many students and postdocs coming from all over, so in an academic circle you wi…

You’re right. It is impossible to put US in a box and say this is how it is. It is the land of the extremes. I tried to portray a picture from my personal experience (and hoped that it would extrapolate to the average experience of a student). NYC and Boston (both places I love are more exceptions than the norm. American society for the large part is oriented towards car ownership. Sure, one can bubble themselves the confines of downtown Boston or Manhattan area, but, if you want the “true experience” of American life, with some trips to the beautiful nature the country has to offer, bbq parties at a colleague’s place in the suburbs etc - you’re going to need a car.

Yes, I will NOT generalize to say all Americans are obese. I merely went by the stats that says more and more are.

I’ve had the American college town experience (college town South Carolina) and I cherish those times. I rode through a scholarship and had a worry free time to actually learn, and have fun while at it. But, I know many of my peers who had to pay USD tuition from their home country cash, and it was incredibly hard for them. Again, it depends…

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