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LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

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Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#111
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Ubiquiti UniFi UDM is not good at device identification. It's kind of annoying because I have this big list of devices on the network and it's peppered with devices that I know don't exist. I'd appreciate it if it said something like "Maybe iPad Air", instead of just "iPad Pro 2nd Gen" when I know no such device is on my network.

ios devices (unsure about android) use random MACs on wireless networks by default. https://support.apple.com/en-us/102509

The random MAC would still be within the vendor prefix though, and a MAC address won’t identity a specific device type anyway.

Edit: I’m wrong

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#112

> In a follow-up post a day after his initial Tweet, Johnie noted “inaccuracy in the ASUS router tool.” Other LG smart washing machine users showed device data use from their apps. It turns out that these appliances more typically use less than 1MB per day.

Other users having low data usage doesn't prove they also have low usage? Are people so uncomfortable saying "we don't know" that they use such loose reasoning to "get the answer"? I'll re-read the article/tweets, maybe I missed something.

[deleted]

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#113
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you agree to some form of anonymous tracking for diagnostics I can see 1mb being reasonable. This would be periodic update on things like usage levels, part quality, etc. Most likely that tracking acceptance is buried in some 500 page eula, but thats a separate issue.

Why do you need an entire megabyte for that? Even if you did laundry five times a day, it shouldn't take more than a few bytes to store a few metrics. Even if you're lazy and uploaded an uncompressed JSON array of objects, that shouldn't be more than a few kB. Way less if you compress it. A megabyte is a LOT of data.

> Even if you're lazy and uploaded an uncompressed JSON array of objects, that shouldn't be more than a few kB.

See, that’s just one lazy engineer writing one telemetry solution. Multiply that by several engineers across several teams, each cobbling together a different telemetry solution for a different product manager’s initiative using a different stack of JavaScript libraries, throw in some poorly-rolled-out infrastructure changes a few years later resulting in some unanticipated retry loops, and I think you can hit that megabyte per day easily enough.

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#114
post #99
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 12 bytes per second, or less than 1kB per minute. Doesn't seem like much.

It's probably a single probe packet once a minute.

Which is likely what is happening here. The LG "ThinQ" washing machines do allow for remote starts: https://github.com/ollo69/ha-smartthinq-sensors/issues/234

> After 10 minutes (IIRC) in remote start mode without starting the machine goes to sleep. You must use the smartthinq_sensors.wake_up command to wake it up, then the remote_start command to start it.

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#115
post #81
post #77

For those who do not want WiFi on their appliances you still can get highly rated reasonably priced washing machines without WiFi, even from the companies that are putting WiFi in nearly everything. E.g., I recently bought an LG WM3400CW washing machine for $650. On Consumer Reports it is tied for 3rd on the front loader ratings list. The LG 3900 and 4000 are tied for #1 with overall scores of 87, then the 3400, 8900…

can't you just plug it in and never configure the wifi?

Generally with devices that are WiFi enabled but do not inherently need WiFi to do their main job there are a few possibilities.

• You do not have to configure WiFi to just use the device. It can do all the functions that type of device generally does, with a reasonable interface. You can configure WiFi to gain access to extra features, such as sending notifications or a friendlier interface.

• You have to configure WiFi to initially set up the device and/or to change some settings later, but it does not need to use WiFi during normal operation. WiFi can be used during normal operation for extra features.

• It needs WiFi during normal operation. Without WiFi you can only do at most a basic subset of normal operations.

For devices that do need WiFi it is worth distinguishing between devices that need to use the internet (directly or via an app on the local network) to function. There are devices that need WiFi because they use that to talk to a required app, but neither the device nor the app need internet.

This can be important when you have an internet outage. A device that requires WiFi but does not require internet can often continue to work when your internet is down as long as the outage is upstream from your home router.

For people whose reason for not wanting to configure WiFi is that they don't want the device sending their personal information to the device maker, it is not necessarily enough to just leave omit configuring WiFi. Allegedly some devices will look for open WiFi networks and use those if you don't explicitly configure a WiFi network.

As far as LG washing machines go I believe they fall under the first bullet item above.

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#116
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They all make a sound when done, you could set up a SoC with a microphone to listen to it. Or monitor power draw. Many ways to do it externally.

My worry would be that you'd have to do some diagnostics on the audio to determine the actual sound. The loudest noise my washer makes is the spin/rinse cycle, which is right before the sound it makes when it's done. You can't just key off of "loud noise" and I don't know how hard setting up to listen to specific frequencies for alerting is.

Then key off of "noise, noise, noise, noise....no noise, no noise, no noise". Done. Can maybe even attach a vibration sensor to the machine...

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could easily see it measuring the forces and weight on the drum every 5 seconds (or even every 10 ms) during the whole wash, to be able to produce charts of vibration patterns, that engineers could use to correlate with failure. Remember -- when you're spinning at high speed to wring out the water, it's actually some pretty crazy strong forces. Or other things measured every ~second, like stuff related to the motor…

You really think they're going to measure all that, upload it, send it to some expensive engineer, have them try to physically model the error, and then... what? That might make sense during development, but there's no way they do that in a consumer product. If a part breaks they're just going to send out a replacement or the repair guy is gonna get some third party part. Recording that much detail would just be nois…

It's cute you think there is some intelligence to this design... it's just whatever some PM/exec dreamed up and some low-level engineer implemented based on requirements. The data is likely just sitting there collecting digital dust.

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#118

If these devices are designed to upload "automatic diagnostic reports" to a central tracker, it's possible this machine is stuck in a failure state that is generating massive amounts of error logs.

Does it matter? It shouldn't be hogging bandwidth like this, that's a failure by itself regardless of whether there another failure state at play. Also, I'd have to question any washing machine that can generate 'massive amounts of error logs'. 3.7 G / Day is an insane amount of data.

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could easily see it measuring the forces and weight on the drum every 5 seconds (or even every 10 ms) during the whole wash, to be able to produce charts of vibration patterns, that engineers could use to correlate with failure. Remember -- when you're spinning at high speed to wring out the water, it's actually some pretty crazy strong forces. Or other things measured every ~second, like stuff related to the motor…

You really think they're going to measure all that, upload it, send it to some expensive engineer, have them try to physically model the error, and then... what? That might make sense during development, but there's no way they do that in a consumer product. If a part breaks they're just going to send out a replacement or the repair guy is gonna get some third party part. Recording that much detail would just be nois…

Well if you claim warranty, I'd expect them to want to have that data.

Maybe they also just sell it together with your advertising id, why not use washing patterns for deanonimyzation ...

Re: LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day

#120
post #17

I'm not opposed to smart homes, I love being able to turn my lights on and off from across the room. But I don't know if I understand the use case for a networked washing machine.

I'm totally with you, except a notification that it's finished would actually be really helpful. It's apparently possible to track a washing machine's progress with a smart switch that monitors power draw; I've got one lying around so might try to implement that soon, to complement my hacky RPi-Ring-doorbell-announcer :)

Even dumber: I sense when the washer door has been closed longer than 70 minutes (the longest cycle is just shy of that), and start making a loud noise, which continues until the door is opened.

Simple as that, no wireless components required. I simply leave the door open when the machine isn't running.

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