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Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

economist.com

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Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#321

Post by wanderingbit »

Loughla wrote: post #319
Grimburger wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Domesticated cats are by far the biggest threats to birds worldwide. You won't see anti-wind advocates talking about curfews or outright banning them though.

That's because cats are not a power source? I'm genuinely confused how they would even be part of this conversation.

I think they're bringing it up because cats are indeed the #1 killer of birds, and so for people who care about maintaining bird populations (presumably people who read this article) it would be better to focus on solutions that decrease the damage cats to do birds, rather than the damage wind turbines + oil-and-gas plants do to birds.

Of course, if you care about birds you're going to try to solve it across multiple fronts. But cat damage should be the first thing bird-lovers try to mitigate.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#322

Post by mantas »

nullstyle wrote: post #233
coryrc wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cats are killing endangered birds everywhere outside their native range. They are killing them in the Americas, in Australia, in New Zealand... basically everywhere that's not Europe, Africa, or West Asia IIUC. One reason you might not think it's a big deal is because the genocide is almost complete. They've already killed off 63 species and more in progress: https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/

Felis Catus doesn't have a native range in any meaningful manner, IMO. They are a global species like us, because of us. You can't put that cat back in the bag no matter the .22 cartridges you expend.

Putting a tiny bell on cats is usually more than enough. At least it gives birds a fair chance.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#323

Post by junofan »

sprucevoid wrote: post #260
libraryatnight wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty clear if we cared much about anything we'd be doing a lot of things. But instead, we have this: We have a conversation like this one, I had it with my sister. We agree on this statement you've made in that conversation. Sister goes and buys a new gigantic SUV that gets 20 mpg. Understands we were just talking about how bad that is, but make a thousand excuses as to why she using the bad thing is a…

Many people struggle to motivate themselves to do their part on huge collective action problems like climate change. That's why national and international political action is needed, and in turn needs smaller groups of individuals to put in effort supporting campaigns for such action. That said lots of people do care in their daily lives and also put that care into practical individual action - and have a fun and mea…

Wouldn’t it be more effective to phase out oil and coal production? Couldn’t that be enforced with remote sensing satellites and cruise missiles?

I’m not seeing the collective action problem here. All the personal shaming stuff feels like a big grift.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#324

Post by alpaca128 »

jodrellblank wrote: post #282
arcticbull wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Agree 100%. Wind turbines killing birds is a disingenuous argument when it comes to climate change. If the people involved in this conversation actually cared about birds, they wouldn't be worried about either. They'd be worried about cats. Cats kill about 20-55% of the entire US bird population every single year. Somewhere between 1.3B and 4B birds per year in the US alone. [1] And an order of magnitude more small…

> " Cats kill about 20-55% of the entire US bird population every single year. Somewhere between 1.3B and 4B birds per year in the US alone. " Humans eat 8 Billion chickens per year in the US alone: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22287530/chicken-beef-fac... Some 15 MegaKilos of chicken: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/chicken-c...

The difference is that cats don't tend to have systems in place to ensure the food supply without eradicating the species.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#325

Post by hnmullany »

goodSteveramos wrote: post #313
standeven wrote: post #250

I worked in oil/gas for a long time. In addition to "windmills are killing all the birds", here are a few of the top green energy lies I've heard: 1. Solar panels are toxic, require more energy to produce than they generate, and can't be recycled. 2. EV's are worse for the environment than ICE vehicles. 3. Lithium mining is worse than oil/gas drilling. 4. Solar/wind prices are skyrocketing and everyone is abandoning…

Calling every dumb argument against the mainstream climate movement a "lie" without further explanation is the kind of "pick a side" logic that entrenches climate change deniers. 1. Yes, solar panel production is not particularly good for the environment but not any more so than many other common industrial processes and the panels themselves are perfectly safe. Yes that used to be true decades ago, but not anymore.…

I believe that it's only thin film solar panels that have high heavy metal content but mono-crystalline panels - which are now the super-dominant technology having drastically decreased in cost - are fairly non-toxic.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#326

Post by sprucevoid »

jewayne wrote: post #295
sprucevoid wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a descriptive matter people do support a lot of species preservation efforts. But we have strong reasons to increase our care for birds and other sentient animals as individuals, with their own subjective experiences and the suffering and harms they endure. After all we already take that view when it comes to companion dogs. We know they can feel a range of emotions and we have as individuals and as society taken…

If we accept that we are responsible for minimizing the suffering of both domestic and wild animals, isn't the logical conclusion that we need to drive those species to extinction as quickly as possible, thus completely ending their suffering? I mean, you are explicitly talking about ending our symbiotic relationship with the domestic chicken. We certainly would not have 20 billion chickens in the world if we all sto…

Factory farming of chickens and other animals causes massive aggregate suffering and should be ended, full stop. But chickens can continue to flourish in animal sanctuaries, where they live their own lives without being killed or exploited as food resources. As for wild animals and suffering, that's a big topic. I think for now we need lots more thinking and research, on what is feasible and reasonable there. Reducing suffering is one important consideration among others.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#327

Post by knodi123 »

Loughla wrote: post #319
Grimburger wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Domesticated cats are by far the biggest threats to birds worldwide. You won't see anti-wind advocates talking about curfews or outright banning them though.

That's because cats are not a power source? I'm genuinely confused how they would even be part of this conversation.

Because anti-wind activists have brought them up.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#329

Post by gopher_space »

Grimburger wrote: post #309
SamBam wrote: post #25

The local birds killed by oil drilling aren't even what we should be comparing to. Even if that number were zero, bird populations world still be better off in a world powered by wind turbines than oil and gas. Global warning is coming for birds too. Global warming poses an "existential threat for two thirds of North American bird species" [1] and obviously a similar proportion of bird species around the globe. 1. ht…

Domesticated cats are by far the biggest threats to birds worldwide. You won't see anti-wind advocates talking about curfews or outright banning them though.

It feels like the assumption was always that I'd forget the oil industry doesn't give a shit about wildlife.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#330

Post by knodi123 »

junofan wrote: post #323
sprucevoid wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people struggle to motivate themselves to do their part on huge collective action problems like climate change. That's why national and international political action is needed, and in turn needs smaller groups of individuals to put in effort supporting campaigns for such action. That said lots of people do care in their daily lives and also put that care into practical individual action - and have a fun and mea…

Wouldn’t it be more effective to phase out oil and coal production? Couldn’t that be enforced with remote sensing satellites and cruise missiles? I’m not seeing the collective action problem here. All the personal shaming stuff feels like a big grift.

no, it's not ecologically effective to bomb all the oil platforms. That would actually be an ecological disaster.
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