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Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

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Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#31

Post by Smaug123 »

0xdeadbeefbabe wrote: post #23
bongripper wrote: post #3

>I don’t think I’m overselling myself too much to expect that I could argue circles around the average uneducated person. Like I mean that on most topics, I could demolish their position and make them look like an idiot. Reduce them to some form of “Look, everything you say fits together and I can’t explain why you’re wrong, I just know you are!” Or, more plausibly, “Shut up I don’t want to talk about this!” > And th…

It's funny he says circles so much.

What, twice, in an "I can do X to Y, you can do X to me" structure?

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#32

Post by thriftwy »

If you are an ordinary person, this is the way to go. You are not in business of evaluating arguments. You need to live your life and for that accept the most reasonable view on everything, verified by your peers.

However, if you have a shot at being intellectual elite of your society, having epistemic helplessness renders you unfit. And we see a lot of people who look like intellectual elite, paid for taking its place, but not doing any reasoning, evaluating and believing of their own. That's why we seemingly only get problems piled up on us.

Imagine a judge who have a popular preoccupation of who is right and who is wrong, before hearing the actual case and using their own experience.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#33

Post by arcbyte »

Swizec wrote: post #22
philip1209 wrote: post #18

This article talks about learned helplessness in a learning context. I talked about it in a work context, and the two could be linked. I think social media is training people for everything to be quick, but learning + work aren't necessarily quick. > This insistence on constant availability disrupts the essence of focused work. Rather than encouraging employees to tackle complex problems independently, there’s a tren…

As a tech lead I would rather see a team member ask me questions early than never. Nudging them in the right direction before they waste 3 days going down a path that’s never going to work is at least half my job. But it’s important that they’ve done enough research to formulate the question. A little struggle helps the learning stick.

Agree. I think about 4 hours is a good rule of thumb for how long you should be stuck before getting help.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#34

Post by steveBK123 »

philip1209 wrote: post #18

This article talks about learned helplessness in a learning context. I talked about it in a work context, and the two could be linked. I think social media is training people for everything to be quick, but learning + work aren't necessarily quick. > This insistence on constant availability disrupts the essence of focused work. Rather than encouraging employees to tackle complex problems independently, there’s a tren…

Yes, and I think some of the neediest juniors (or seniors who behave like juniors) have now substituted in ChatGPT for some of their nagging.

The ones I see doing this most heavily are not really developing themselves and improving in any meaningful way.

At least a stack overflow thread will be filled with alternative solutions, arguments, counterpoints and caveats.

ChatGPT leaves the questioner with the illusion that they have received the 1 good answer.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#35

Post by JackFr »

I have to admit a weakness for reading not-quite-crackpot-but-likely-wrong theories. In particular, big fan of Julian Jaynes and The Development of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-cameral Mind, and the aquatic ape hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_hypothesis

I get that they're probably not true, but I do enjoy reading novel thinking and viewpoints by smart people with a cool hook.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#36

Post by helicalmix »

thadt wrote: post #25

> The medical establishment offers a shiny tempting solution. First, a total unwillingness to trust anything, no matter how plausible it sounds, until it’s gone through an endless cycle of studies and meta-analyses. Isn't this just... science? We learned from the ancient philosophers that really smart people can reason powerfully about a whole lot of things. But - if we want to know whether that reasoning holds up, i…

One counterexample for why I think it's not always the best approach is that there are sometimes disproportionate rewards for being right when everyone else is wrong.

Doing so, however, requires you to take an idea seriously before it has gone through analyses so extensive that everyone else believes the same idea too.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#38

Post by sjfjsjdjwvwvc »

debacle wrote: post #9

This feels like it belongs on /r/iamverysmart. Most people don't argue within moral frameworks. Most people don't live logic-based lives. Most people prefer happiness to correctness, peace to progress, and quietude to justice. This is a very difficult thing, and not a very good thing, for those who want change.

I would argue it is a very good thing. Most “bad” things historically have been created by those clamouring for progress and justice.

Like Bukowski said

those who preach peace do not have peace

beware the preachers

beware the knowers

beware those who are always reading books

I would extend it as

those who preach justice are not just

those who preach rationality are not rational

those who preach correctness are not right

And those who preach progress are against change

/edited for readability

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#39

Post by krapp »

twelfthnight wrote: post #30

Why is it assumed that someone who is convinced by arguments is prone to wrong ideas? Wouldn't that type of person become iteratively closer to the truth every time they hear a new argument and compare to the others they've heard?

Because the most convincing argument is not necessarily the most correct, nor does comparing one argument to another discriminate truth from lies.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#40

Post by steveBK123 »

Swizec wrote: post #22
philip1209 wrote: post #18

This article talks about learned helplessness in a learning context. I talked about it in a work context, and the two could be linked. I think social media is training people for everything to be quick, but learning + work aren't necessarily quick. > This insistence on constant availability disrupts the essence of focused work. Rather than encouraging employees to tackle complex problems independently, there’s a tren…

As a tech lead I would rather see a team member ask me questions early than never. Nudging them in the right direction before they waste 3 days going down a path that’s never going to work is at least half my job. But it’s important that they’ve done enough research to formulate the question. A little struggle helps the learning stick.

My problem is I see this most frequently with debugging. It's like no one knows how to debug anymore. Read a runbook, google an error, try a few things.. no, just pester a senior.

When I find myself responding to juniors/mids with the same list of rote, problem agnostic, runbook responses .. and it actually helps them, it's unnerving. It's like the socratic method of debugging without them actually learning anything from the experience.

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