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Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

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Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#81

Post by lm28469 »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #61
lm28469 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely possible in theory, just very hard in practice. It's an economical alliance, not a federation, each country has different tax, social security, pension, health insurance, labor laws, &c. all of them are as complex as your home country's one, but now you have to deal with them in a foreign language, and your employer hr has to deal with them too It's just much easier to relocate or hire a local than to…

>just very hard in practice Yes it is, by design. And why aren't we(the EU) trying to make it easier? >It's just much easier to relocate or hire a local Is it? Then what about the famous "m'uh labor shortage" employers are crying about? If they'd be open and have simpler ways to hire people remotely from other EU memebrs, their labor shortages could be over. Phisical relocation of people/families across countries jus…

> why aren't we(the EU) fighting to reduce or emliminate those complexities

Because, again, the EU is composed of different countries with different laws/culture/opinions/&c. we can't agree on most things do you think it's just a matter of "want". Again it's an economical alliance not a federation, if we wanted a federation we'd have a federation

You seem to imagine this is a detail but it really isn't one. Labor laws didn't materialise out of thin air in anno domini 2024, there are hundreds of years of inertia. The ultra privileged "laptop class" making 2-5x the min wage of their respective country's wage isn't a top priority for our overlords in Bruxelles

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#82

Post by randomdata »

meheleventyone wrote: post #70
randomdata wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You have free movement to any country in the EU you want... Unless you want to keep your job, then you've another thing coming!" is not a freedom. Which is fine. The people of the EU can make whatever decisions they want. But it is funny that it has ended up with less freedom, after wanting to provide more freedom, than countries that have never tried to give more freedom.

Arguably most people’s jobs don’t let them move countries and being able to do so is largely the preserve of the fortunate. I imagine most people would also find it hard to move any significant internal distance. You’d be amazed at how many people make use of this freedom in the EU though despite the cultural, linguistic and bureaucratic barriers. It was pretty mind blowing to me when I could just move my life from S…

Generally, if you have work authorization in a given country, it is unlikely that country cares where you actually do the work. In fact, it is normally considered beneficial for a country to allow domestic work to happen outside of its borders in order to grease international trade.

In a vacuum it may not be surprising that EU member countries have chosen to be more protectionist. However, the EU was created specifically to allow free movement of labour. For it to explicitly deny free movement of labour is... interesting.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#84

Post by dev_0 »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #46
oytis wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These foreigners will quickly learn the cost of living in Germany and what their colleagues get, I don't think it's a significant factor. What really keeps wages down IMO is the lack of high-margin/high-growth businesses, lack of German "unicorns", general risk-averseness of German capital (which can be explained by the previous two).

> IMO is the lack of high-margin/high-growth businesses It's not really a German-only thing. Other than the US and China almost no other country currently has such things. EU is mostly traditional businesses and risk-averse investors.

[dead]

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#85

Post by gituliar »

Archelaos wrote: post #47
gituliar wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first you pay taxes in the country the company you work for is registered (there might be b2b options, which might differ). Then you pay rest in the country where you have a tax residency. In your example, at first you pay taxes in Germany and if Estonian taxes are bigger, you pay the difference there.

I am partly working for an Italian company from Germany. Billing is very simple. I invoice the Italian company according to the so-called reverse charge procedure: My invoice does not include VAT, but only the European VAT number of my and the customer's company. The customer must settle the VAT with his tax office. I only have to inform my tax office at regular intervals about the turnover with the individual compan…

This is because you run your own company. Things are different if one works for a company as an employee.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#86

Post by FirmwareBurner »

randomdata wrote: post #82
meheleventyone wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably most people’s jobs don’t let them move countries and being able to do so is largely the preserve of the fortunate. I imagine most people would also find it hard to move any significant internal distance. You’d be amazed at how many people make use of this freedom in the EU though despite the cultural, linguistic and bureaucratic barriers. It was pretty mind blowing to me when I could just move my life from S…

Generally, if you have work authorization in a given country, it is unlikely that country cares where you actually do the work. In fact, it is normally considered beneficial for a country to allow domestic work to happen outside of its borders in order to grease international trade. In a vacuum it may not be surprising that EU member countries have chosen to be more protectionist. However, the EU was created specific…

>Generally, if you have work authorization in a given country, it is unlikely that country cares where you actually do the work. In fact, it is normally considered beneficial for a country to allow domestic work to happen outside of its borders in order to grease international trade.

That's false for a lot of the EU. It's usally the opposite. They force you to do the work within gthe country's premises so you contribute to the taxes and busineses there instead of abroad.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#87

Post by randomdata »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #86
randomdata wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, if you have work authorization in a given country, it is unlikely that country cares where you actually do the work. In fact, it is normally considered beneficial for a country to allow domestic work to happen outside of its borders in order to grease international trade. In a vacuum it may not be surprising that EU member countries have chosen to be more protectionist. However, the EU was created specific…

>Generally, if you have work authorization in a given country, it is unlikely that country cares where you actually do the work. In fact, it is normally considered beneficial for a country to allow domestic work to happen outside of its borders in order to grease international trade. That's false for a lot of the EU. It's usally the opposite. They force you to do the work within gthe country's premises so you contrib…

Yes, we know. That is what the entire discussion has been about...

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#88

Post by oytis »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #46
oytis wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These foreigners will quickly learn the cost of living in Germany and what their colleagues get, I don't think it's a significant factor. What really keeps wages down IMO is the lack of high-margin/high-growth businesses, lack of German "unicorns", general risk-averseness of German capital (which can be explained by the previous two).

> IMO is the lack of high-margin/high-growth businesses It's not really a German-only thing. Other than the US and China almost no other country currently has such things. EU is mostly traditional businesses and risk-averse investors.

> It's not really a German-only thing.

Sure, relatively (compared to what one can have in the US) low salaries for software engineers is a EU wide thing. Some countries pay more some less, Germany is probably closer to the top if you consider EU.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#89

Post by badpun »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #49
kypro wrote: post #4

I can only speak for the UK, but the tech market is very different here. We don't really have large tech companies like in the US. Most tech work in the UK is in sectors like finance, retail, or public sector. While our economy isn't great and there are lay offs it would be wrong to call it "tech layoffs". We have some tech startups here too though, and those are obviously struggling right now, but startups don't nor…

> We don't really have large tech companies like in the US. No, but you do have the governemnt, HFT and banking industry which pays contractors well, plus local branches of many top US companies which is still a leg up on the labor market comapred to most EU memebers, meanign salaries at the top end are much higher than most of the EU. Look for jobs in countries without top banking and no branhces of top US companies…

In my experience, average contracting rates are not that different between UK and mainland Northern Europe. It's around 500-600 GBP in UK, and 500-700 EUR in Northern Europe (or local equivalent in SEK, DKK etc.). Southern Europe is much worse, and Eastern Europe also pays less, but in EE the money goes much further, so you might actually be better off than a contractor in London City.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#90

Post by 698969 »

jamil7 wrote: post #26
devdude1337 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that developers from Brazil, Vietnam, Canada, Egypt or the US would demand so much lower wages? I helped companies onboarding people from all over the globe, and every developer (at least those we met and signed) know their worth.

Because if people can compete on wages due to lower COL, they will, and some companies will reward that.

Immigrants don't get a lower COL, they live in the same place and pay the same taxes.

If anything their COL is higher because of the fees related to being an immigrant, they lose out on benefits and on sharing fixed costs with the family.

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