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Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

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Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#31

Post by gituliar »

askonomm wrote: post #14
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's in every EU country for tax and social security reasons, they want you to also be a tax resident there because that dicatates your tax, labor laws and employee benefits meaning it's familiar and predictable for the company. There's no EU wide citizenship, employee regulations and tax liability for employees but are local for each country. They don't want you earning money in one country but spemding it and tax…

You pay income tax based on where you live though. So I can earn money from Germany, but if I live in Estonia, my taxes go to Estonia. Most remote workers I know are set up as LLC's, and they simply invoice their clients for the work, entirely avoiding any tax or social security issues for the employer, since you the employee have to deal with it yourself in your own country.

At first you pay taxes in the country the company you work for is registered (there might be b2b options, which might differ). Then you pay rest in the country where you have a tax residency.

In your example, at first you pay taxes in Germany and if Estonian taxes are bigger, you pay the difference there.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#33

Post by oytis »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #18
askonomm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay income tax based on where you live though. So I can earn money from Germany, but if I live in Estonia, my taxes go to Estonia. Most remote workers I know are set up as LLC's, and they simply invoice their clients for the work, entirely avoiding any tax or social security issues for the employer, since you the employee have to deal with it yourself in your own country.

Yeah, you can but as LLCs, not as direct employees.

At least in Germany there are strict rules for what is called a pretence of self-employment. A freelancer needs to have more than one client, the client cannot set working hours, access to systems also cannot be the same as for employees etc. US has something similar AFAIK, I would expect most EU countries to have it too.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#34

Post by askonomm »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #29
askonomm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yes, EU/Europe is a collection of many independent countries, unlike U.S which is one country. And you can't work in a country as an employee without having a residence permit in that country. The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense.

>The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense. Why not? My ex German boss moved to the US to work for a company there and since the position is remote, he can live and work in any state he wants. You can't do that in the EU which limits labor mobility which hurts the EU economy and innovation versus the US.

United States is one country. European Union is not a country, it is a collection of many independent countries with separate laws, languages, cultures, governments. You can also live and work from any corner of the same country in EU if you want, provided that your job is also in the same country, just like in the U.S. This is not any different.

What you're saying is like can you work for a Canadian company while living in the U.S? Or an Argentinian company while living in the U.S? I don't think so. So I fail to see how U.S is somehow better here, and you're comparing European Union to 1 country, which is just ridiculous, since EU is not a country. European Union "states" are not the same as U.S states. They are actual countries.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#35

Post by riley333 »

Haven't heard much from my family in Japan. Layoffs are rare in Japan in general and unemployment is generally always in the 2% range there. I'm sure startups are struggling there though as that seems to be the global trend, but the software engineers I know there at bigger companies haven't mentioned anything about layoffs and seem to be doing fine.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#37

Post by [deleted] »

devdude1337 wrote: post #3

Freelance developer from Germany here. There is a significant drop in projects and a slowdown in permanent offerings, but no layoff wave like in the US. Demand is still high but due to the current recession most companies delay hiring for now. From my point of view there is also a skill-missmatch in Germany. While firms look for the usual most modern tech stacks, workforce is often conservative, staying years or even…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#38

Post by devdude1337 »

oytis wrote: post #27
devdude1337 wrote: post #3

Freelance developer from Germany here. There is a significant drop in projects and a slowdown in permanent offerings, but no layoff wave like in the US. Demand is still high but due to the current recession most companies delay hiring for now. From my point of view there is also a skill-missmatch in Germany. While firms look for the usual most modern tech stacks, workforce is often conservative, staying years or even…

What is the bureaucracy in question? Required salary for the blue card is really low now, especially for tech workers, so basically you just go ahead and hire as I understand.

You can of course hire a contractor and tax them as usual business costs. But for a permanent position the employee needs a European Social ID, a Tax ID, health care account and a bank account. All this is needed before you can pay the employee’s first loan.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#39

Post by oytis »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #30
devdude1337 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that developers from Brazil, Vietnam, Canada, Egypt or the US would demand so much lower wages? I helped companies onboarding people from all over the globe, and every developer (at least those we met and signed) know their worth.

>and every developer (at least those we met and signed) know their worth What about those you didn't sign? What about the SW bodyshops aka visa shops, who pray on desperate foreigners from broken countries trying to emigrate at any cost? I know more of those sleezy bodyshops than I have fingers on my hands to count. I never said your comapny does this, but you can't pretend immigration wage dumping doesn't exist and…

These foreigners will quickly learn the cost of living in Germany and what their colleagues get, I don't think it's a significant factor. What really keeps wages down IMO is the lack of high-margin/high-growth businesses, lack of German "unicorns", general risk-averseness of German capital (which can be explained by the previous two).

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#40

Post by [deleted] »

devdude1337 wrote: post #10
askonomm wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the remote jobs I see from Germany also hire only those who live in Germany, so it seems to me that Germans don't even want EU citizens, just Germans.

Many managers I got to know have a hard time expressing themselves in English properly. They fear miscommunication and the administrative work connected to non-German employees.

[deleted]
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