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Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

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Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#21
Layoffs are bureaucratic in Spain, needs to be approved by unions and sometimes government too (EREs) (1)

Considering how lowly paid SWEs are in this country, I'd imagine the company would be better off keeping them on payroll.

1: https://www.wolterskluwer.com/es-es/expert-insights/que-es-u...

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#22
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's in every EU country for tax and social security reasons, they want you to also be a tax resident there because that dicatates your tax, labor laws and employee benefits meaning it's familiar and predictable for the company. There's no EU wide citizenship, employee regulations and tax liability for employees but are local for each country. They don't want you earning money in one country but spemding it and tax…

There are rules to deal with this. Lots of French people near the border work in Belgium for example. They are even actively recruited.

Yeah, but those rules are in place mostly to accomodate cross border commuters. I can't easily be employed by a Belgian comapny while living and working in Portugal same as those living in Belgium, but involves extra hoops like either me working as a LLC or the company setting up an office in Portugal or hiring me through a local Porthughese third party, adn most caompnies don't want this hassle just for one employee.

I'm not in Portugal, that was just for the sake of an example.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#23

Freelance developer from Germany here. There is a significant drop in projects and a slowdown in permanent offerings, but no layoff wave like in the US. Demand is still high but due to the current recession most companies delay hiring for now. From my point of view there is also a skill-missmatch in Germany. While firms look for the usual most modern tech stacks, workforce is often conservative, staying years or even…

>Hiring non-EU citizens is almost impossible because of the bureaucracy. We want to water down the already mediocre wages even more? If you can't find workers across the whole 448 million EU block willing to work for you, you're doing something wrong.

What makes you think that developers from Brazil, Vietnam, Canada, Egypt or the US would demand so much lower wages? I helped companies onboarding people from all over the globe, and every developer (at least those we met and signed) know their worth.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay income tax based on where you live though. So I can earn money from Germany, but if I live in Estonia, my taxes go to Estonia. Most remote workers I know are set up as LLC's, and they simply invoice their clients for the work, entirely avoiding any tax or social security issues for the employer, since you the employee have to deal with it yourself in your own country.

Yeah, you can but as LLCs, not as direct employees.

Well yes, EU/Europe is a collection of many independent countries, unlike U.S which is one country. And you can't work in a country as an employee without having a residence permit in that country. The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#25
According to Bitkom, the German IT trade association, there are 149,000 open IT positions reported in Germany as of 2023-12-13, which is 12,000 more than one year ago.[1] The absolut numbers are not so significant here, because this is only what is reported and a lot of IT positions exist outside of the IT industry in the narrow sense, but the trend is quite meaningful.

[1] Source: https://www.bitkom.org/Presse/Presseinformation/Rekord-Fachk... (in German)

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hiring non-EU citizens is almost impossible because of the bureaucracy. We want to water down the already mediocre wages even more? If you can't find workers across the whole 448 million EU block willing to work for you, you're doing something wrong.

What makes you think that developers from Brazil, Vietnam, Canada, Egypt or the US would demand so much lower wages? I helped companies onboarding people from all over the globe, and every developer (at least those we met and signed) know their worth.

Because if people can compete on wages due to lower COL, they will, and some companies will reward that.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#27

Freelance developer from Germany here. There is a significant drop in projects and a slowdown in permanent offerings, but no layoff wave like in the US. Demand is still high but due to the current recession most companies delay hiring for now. From my point of view there is also a skill-missmatch in Germany. While firms look for the usual most modern tech stacks, workforce is often conservative, staying years or even…

What is the bureaucracy in question? Required salary for the blue card is really low now, especially for tech workers, so basically you just go ahead and hire as I understand.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#28
post #13

I haven't heard much this year in New Zealand but '21/'22 was pretty bad for Xero and a handful of smaller companies. But overall companies here didn't see the insane 2020 growth of American firms. Hiring has slowed across the board, hugely.

Yeah I would say the same thing. Slower hiring overall but less big layoffs. I'm a contractor and haven't had much of a shortage in work for a while now, but we did have a big contract drop off in 2022 when the company went through a double-digit layoff.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you can but as LLCs, not as direct employees.

Well yes, EU/Europe is a collection of many independent countries, unlike U.S which is one country. And you can't work in a country as an employee without having a residence permit in that country. The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense.

>The comparison to U.S here makes absolutely no sense.

Why not? My ex German boss moved to the US to work for a company there and since the position is remote, he can live and work in any state he wants. You can't do that in the EU which limits labor mobility which hurts the EU economy and innovation versus the US.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hiring non-EU citizens is almost impossible because of the bureaucracy. We want to water down the already mediocre wages even more? If you can't find workers across the whole 448 million EU block willing to work for you, you're doing something wrong.

What makes you think that developers from Brazil, Vietnam, Canada, Egypt or the US would demand so much lower wages? I helped companies onboarding people from all over the globe, and every developer (at least those we met and signed) know their worth.

>and every developer (at least those we met and signed) know their worth

What about those you didn't sign? What about the SW bodyshops aka visa shops, who pray on desperate foreigners from broken countries trying to emigrate at any cost? I know more of those sleezy bodyshops than I have fingers on my hands to count.

I never said your comapny does this, but you can't pretend immigration wage dumping doesn't exist and that many companyes aren't exploiting it.

You also can't tell me with a straight face that flooding the market with more workers doesn't lower wages as per the supply/demand of the market.

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