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Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

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Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#61

Post by FirmwareBurner »

lm28469 wrote: post #56
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said the EU is a country (nor does it need to be to fulfill my point), but as an economic block, if it wishes to compete with the US in terms of economy and innovation, it needs to do better in terms of labor mobility, and the current status quo is holding it back. I hope my point of what I originally meant is clear now and you don't need to explain anymore about why the EU is not a country like the US.

It's completely possible in theory, just very hard in practice. It's an economical alliance, not a federation, each country has different tax, social security, pension, health insurance, labor laws, &c. all of them are as complex as your home country's one, but now you have to deal with them in a foreign language, and your employer hr has to deal with them too It's just much easier to relocate or hire a local than to…

>just very hard in practice

Yes it is, by design. And why aren't we(the EU) trying to make it easier?

>It's just much easier to relocate or hire a local

Is it? Then what about the famous "m'uh labor shortage" employers are crying about? If they'd be open and have simpler ways to hire people remotely from other EU memebrs, their labor shortages could be over.

Phisical relocation of people/families across countries just for a job that can be done remotely, is also a huge PITA for the environment due to all the back and forth traveling between home country and work country people do, and for the housing market, not to mention for the family unit and communities loosing people having to uproot themveles just to press keys on a laptop but only if done inside the right EU country for the same souless corporation. Do I need to state even more benefits of easy EU wide remote work would bring or is the silliness of the current EU status quo beginning to sink in?

>but you don't seem to grasp the complexity of the consequences

Oh I know the complexities very well, but that was not my point. My point was: why aren't we(the EU) fighting to reduce or emliminate those complexities in order to imporve labor mobility which would help reduce labor shortages and also improve the job prospects of people who can't relocate due to family or whatever personal reasons?

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#62

Post by FirmwareBurner »

lm28469 wrote: post #58
randomdata wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you're saying is like can you work for a Canadian company while living in the U.S? Yes, of course. You do need government approval, but generally they are willing. However, one of the supposed goals of the EU's creation was to allow free movement of labour across member countries. Exactly so you can work in another EU country without having to secure government approval. It is interesting that you say not only…

Well yes, free movement of labor, aka people _moving_ to their job. Not people fleeing their country to enjoy cheap Greek beaches on German salaries

The EU "freedom of movement" for work was drafted something like 60 years ago, well before the advent of remote work or even the internet itself, and is in a dire need of an update to modern times and modern ways of work.

Labor mobility doesn't just mean me being free to moving across countries for work.

Labor mobility means me being free to work for whichever company I want in the EU as an EU citizen, it doesn't have to mandate that I have to physically be there in that country for that particular job if physical presence is not required for that job (aka the majority of the white collar laptop-class, which we learned in the pandemic)

Does my code run better at my German employer if run from a German home wifi instead of a Romanian or Bulgarian home wifi? Then why should I have to be in Germany to do that job and not any other EU state suffice?

Yes, I know about all the different laws and taxes of each country and all that legal mumbo-jumbo, but those laws that hinder this can always be changed in order to facilitate this, same how we changed them to have free trade of goods, free EU wide emergency healthcare for EU members, or how we abolished GSM roaming fees such that my SIM hooks on to any cell tower on EU soil and I don't have to pay extra, ain't that amazing.

So then why aren't we(the EU) doing it? Eu-wide remote work labor regualtions(or more like de-regualtuions) would bring more benefits to the block as a whole.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#63

Post by randomdata »

lm28469 wrote: post #58
randomdata wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you're saying is like can you work for a Canadian company while living in the U.S? Yes, of course. You do need government approval, but generally they are willing. However, one of the supposed goals of the EU's creation was to allow free movement of labour across member countries. Exactly so you can work in another EU country without having to secure government approval. It is interesting that you say not only…

Well yes, free movement of labor, aka people _moving_ to their job. Not people fleeing their country to enjoy cheap Greek beaches on German salaries

"You have free movement to any country in the EU you want... Unless you want to keep your job, then you've another thing coming!" is not a freedom.

Which is fine. The people of the EU can make whatever decisions they want. But it is funny that it has ended up with less freedom, after wanting to provide more freedom, than countries that have never tried to give more freedom.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#65

Post by muzani »

SE Asia had been hit hard for a while. The thing is we never really had a dot com bubble. Unicorns were raising hard, selling $1 stuff for $0.90, outsourcing everything, skyrocketing growth, raised billions, repeat. VCs would frown on companies that were raising money to use it as a warchest, YC style.

It choked out funding for cautious YC style growth especially after Grab acquired Uber operations here. So everyone else did it too, the fake it until you make it mindset became prominent. Eventually everyone runs out of fund sources and have to become profitable, but it's hard when you're now public and used to losing millions every quarter. The costs is often in employees, so waves of layoffs it is.

A lot of it isn't American money, but it's bad timing.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#66

Post by FirmwareBurner »

oytis wrote: post #33
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you can but as LLCs, not as direct employees.

At least in Germany there are strict rules for what is called a pretence of self-employment. A freelancer needs to have more than one client, the client cannot set working hours, access to systems also cannot be the same as for employees etc. US has something similar AFAIK, I would expect most EU countries to have it too.

Yeah but that doesn't aid cross-EU remote work, quite the contrary.

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#67

Post by peblos »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #49
kypro wrote: post #4

I can only speak for the UK, but the tech market is very different here. We don't really have large tech companies like in the US. Most tech work in the UK is in sectors like finance, retail, or public sector. While our economy isn't great and there are lay offs it would be wrong to call it "tech layoffs". We have some tech startups here too though, and those are obviously struggling right now, but startups don't nor…

> We don't really have large tech companies like in the US. No, but you do have the governemnt, HFT and banking industry which pays contractors well, plus local branches of many top US companies which is still a leg up on the labor market comapred to most EU memebers, meanign salaries at the top end are much higher than most of the EU. Look for jobs in countries without top banking and no branhces of top US companies…

I don’t think this comment is disputing any of that.

It did mention the financial and public sector industries, which you call out, and only being able to speak for the UK however.

While it didn’t include HFT, that doesn’t employee the same number of heads as the others

Re: Ask HN: Are tech layoffs happening abroad?

#70

Post by meheleventyone »

randomdata wrote: post #63
lm28469 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yes, free movement of labor, aka people _moving_ to their job. Not people fleeing their country to enjoy cheap Greek beaches on German salaries

"You have free movement to any country in the EU you want... Unless you want to keep your job, then you've another thing coming!" is not a freedom. Which is fine. The people of the EU can make whatever decisions they want. But it is funny that it has ended up with less freedom, after wanting to provide more freedom, than countries that have never tried to give more freedom.

Arguably most people’s jobs don’t let them move countries and being able to do so is largely the preserve of the fortunate. I imagine most people would also find it hard to move any significant internal distance.

You’d be amazed at how many people make use of this freedom in the EU though despite the cultural, linguistic and bureaucratic barriers. It was pretty mind blowing to me when I could just move my life from Scotland to Iceland. Particularly as that’s a significantly different transition than moving from one state in the US to another.

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