Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

motherjones.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 375 posts

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#271

Post by jsprinkles »

batista wrote: post #174
jsprinkles wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A conference isn't Comedy Central Presents, is it now? That's a roomful of people who came to learn, not to watch you hobble through an offensive routine. If I buy tickets to see Lewis Black, I know what I'm getting into, and Lewis Black isn't representing his startup at a trade show. No matter how you try to butter this guy up, what kind of jokes you tell is a large part of who you are, because you find them funny (…

> A conference isn't Comedy Central Presents, is it now? That's a roomful of people who came to learn, not to watch you hobble through an offensive routine. If I buy tickets to see Lewis Black, I know what I'm getting into, and Lewis Black isn't representing his startup at a trade show. Well, the distinction is not that clear cut, since humor belongs to every time in life --and especially in public gatherings and pre…

> Let me assure you that it's totally irrelevant and BS with respect to who I am (or anybody else you judge that way is).

So your outward behavior has nothing to do with who you are? That sounds worse: you sound like an actor. Honestly, you sound more devious than the backstabber you described, because you'd like others to believe that how you act does not describe you, and you sound like you're up to something.

How you act is who you are, to other people. That's just how it is.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#272

Post by fennecfoxen »

ghurlman wrote: post #121
Alex3917 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With teaching, there have been laws aimed at preventing men from teaching for well over 100 years now. That's why the vast majority of elementary school teachers are women. In the era of modern American schooling, there has never been a period where women were not dominant. I suppose you could make an argument that historically most itinerant teachers were probably men, but this really seems like a very different job…

[citation needed] Please? I'm curious if this is local to you, or a more widespread thing.

I don't know about laws, but a the tales from my one friend trying to go into elementary education weren't too pleasant. The system was very clique-ish, and a number of people seemed to not like his style, so one of them made up some ridiculous sexual-harassment-of-children story involving vampires which was conveniently completely retracted the moment after they were done using it as an excuse to kick him out...

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#273

Post by skore »

ceol wrote: post #99
skore wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you to a degree, but you simply can't put it as strong as you did. It is absolutely possible to make a joke that is understood as sexist without being one yourself. That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend…

> That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Would you agree there's a difference between a comedian telling a sexist joke and a respected speaker at a tech conference telling a sexist joke? > Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend others. However, they didn'…

> They know what they said is offensive but don't care.

I think this might be the crux here: If you simply cannot find humor in such jokes, that's just the way it is and I can spend all day trying to convince you that it is possible - we simply cannot resolve this.

But it's not about whether the person telling the joke does or does not care about whether it is offensive. Actually, a lot of comedians tell joke knowing full well and precisely because the jokes are offensive.

> Instead, we should take it the other way and stop excusing this behavior. It does nothing but alienate women.

I don't think this is a problem that we can "solve" just like there is "solution" to human diseases. The complex moral and emotional minefield that is human interaction is like an immune system: A dirty solution to a truly dirty problem. It often sucks, but there is a reason why it's there: Because it just, sadly, happens to be the best solution to a problem.

I fully agree that the "mild" form of sexism that is often laughed away is terrible and a lot of people do a lot of hurt without even noticing a lot of the time. But I don't think there is really a solution other to just being a human and acting appropriately like one.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#274

Post by slantyyz »

JanezStupar wrote: post #246
anichan wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not be the primary reason but it certainly doesn't help. Back in high school, I was really excited to join the robotics team and I really had a passion for it but I only stayed in it for a year before quitting. I was the only girl on the team and the attitude people took with me was infuriating. It felt like such a boy's club. Sure, you can just pass it off as "boys will be boys", high school boys are stupid…

Not that this applies to you, but I have seen a female programmer (co worker) invoke the chauvinist card, when in fact she was no good as programmer. She wanted to be involved, she wanted to do cool stuff. But she didn't have the basics dialed at all and didn't have the work ethic to pick it up at an accelerated pace. As far as I have seen the guys in hard fields (as AI and Robotics) are pretty selective bunch and wi…

> I have seen a female programmer (co worker) invoke the chauvinist card

Incompetent people will invoke whatever card is convenient for them, whether it's sexism, racism, ageism, what have you.

> But I have only met a handful of women willing to put in the necessary work.

If I were to go by my experience of people in tech (which includes non-startup environments), only a small portion of people are willing to put in the necessary work - male or female.

There's a higher concentration of people of people willing to pay their dues in the smaller companies like startups, but I'm not convinced that percentage-wise, the "handful of women" you talk of is any worse than the percentage of men in tech on the whole, which includes the non-startup world.

Remember, the 501s outnumber the "hardcore" people by a huge margin, and a vast majority of the 501s are men.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#275

Post by MBlume »

MartinCron wrote: post #227
MBlume wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but yes, please, let's ostracize him. Our culture will be better off without him. Sometimes not pissing in the pool isn't enough, sometimes asking people nicely to stop isn't enough, sometimes you have to force people out of the pool if you want to swim somewhere that doesn't have piss in it.

I don't know if you made up the "pissing in the pool" metaphor for this kind of behavior, but it's just perfect. Thank you.

Thanks =) I'm honestly not sure if it's original or not.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#276

Post by srconstantin »

scott_s wrote: post #253
thwest wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would be happy with a definition of success that allows for the sidelining of an entire gender?

I think his point was that if we shun them, and they wither and die, then their shunning of a gender ceases to be an issue.

BTW, I'm a she, and yes, that was my point.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#277

Post by sfrench »

ojbyrne wrote: post #166
Lewisham wrote: post #15

What I find particularly disconcerting about this Van Horn story is not that he wanted to present it (which is terrible in and of itself), but that this guy is 28, went through Digg (who never struck me as a company of idiots), already presented a sexist presentation, and still appears at SXSW either by invitation of him or Path. Why would Path or SXSW allow it? Did he not practice this presentation at Path before he…

Matt arrived at digg in 2007 if I recall correctly. At that point the culture was being reshaped into what is described in the article. Also lots of women were hired - young, attractive women. And we all know how that worked out. The reason why this culture persists is because people are rewarded for promulgating it. Matt is a VP at Path.

Owen, I think your memory is a little fuzzy on this. If you recall, we overlapped for a few months in 2007 before you left, and the "lots of women" you describe just weren't there.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#278

Post by rmc »

ebbv wrote: post #218
rmc wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of the specifics, bit I would have also assumed that since abortion is a slightly controversial issue now, that Apple blocked it. They don't want porn on app store, so I assumed that they blocked abortion providers aswell. The other reason I find this "siri sexism" theory hard to believe is how the OP phrased the complaint. "... the male programmers didnt think to include abortion ...". Does the OP reall…

They didn't block it. The actual problem was identified and it was that the person throwing a fit was searching for terms that Planned Parenthood didn't list themselves under. There was no action on Apple's part, deliberate or otherwise, that caused it.

Yeah that makes sense. When I first heard about the "scandal", I presumed it was Apple erring on the side of caution and banning porn and abortions.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#279

Post by asciilifeform »

mahyarm wrote: post #265
asciilifeform wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you be stuck in the salt mines... > The work is intellectually gratifying Most likely, this is where we differ. The only programming work that I find truly gratifying happens to be my 100%-non-monetizable life project. ( http://www.loper-os.org ) Everything else is just a way to pay the bills. That is to say, salt mine labor. In order to eat and pay rent, I burn my prime waking hours working on things other…

What you describe is a complaint about jobs, corporate culture and how market demands change over time, nothing unique to programming. If you had to choose again, what would you've done that wasn't 'salt-mine labor' then?

> What you describe is a complaint about jobs, corporate culture and how market demands change over time, nothing unique to programming

"Market demands"? What part of "non-monetizable calling" do you not understand? I'm not sure it even makes sense for me to talk to you at all. It is like trying to describe 15-dimensional geometry to a Flatlander.

> If you had to choose again, what would you've done that wasn't 'salt-mine labor' then?

I can say only:

"I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." (Charles Babbage)

But if you must know: I'd be an inventor. In the 1880s.

Hey, you asked.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#280

Post by cellis »

secoif wrote: post #215
asciilifeform wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you be stuck in the salt mines... > The work is intellectually gratifying Most likely, this is where we differ. The only programming work that I find truly gratifying happens to be my 100%-non-monetizable life project. ( http://www.loper-os.org ) Everything else is just a way to pay the bills. That is to say, salt mine labor. In order to eat and pay rent, I burn my prime waking hours working on things other…

Sounds like you desperately need a new profession. If you don't do it for love, you're wasting your life.

This sounds pretty naive. Just because someone doesn't do something they love now, doesn't mean they're wasting their life. It may simply mean they like eating rather than starving.
Post reply on HN