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More Teens Who Use Marijuana Are Suffering from Psychosis

wsj.com

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Re: More Teens Who Use Marijuana Are Suffering from Psychosis

#51

Post by mpol »

jdietrich wrote: post #43
denkmoon wrote: post #11

Ok then. If we take the hypothesis at face value, what is to be done about it? Prohibition obviously isn't a solution as that's the status quo - it's already illegal for teens to buy and consume cannabis.

Cannabis is a risk factor in schizophrenia, but it is a million miles from being the risk factor. Happy, healthy young people with stable family lives rarely use cannabis on a daily basis; conversely, people with troubled childhoods and pre-existing mental health problems are most at risk from heavy cannabis use. If the goal is preventing severe mental illness, then the best solution we've got right now is coordinate…

Can someone explain was this was being downvoted?

Re: More Teens Who Use Marijuana Are Suffering from Psychosis

#52

Post by cassianoleal »

happymellon wrote: post #49
dragonwriter wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no hidden message. There are two sentences, and they mean exactly what the words in them say, and that’s it.

And I am not disagreeing with any of it, your phrasing is just very aggressive which made me wonder. As an outside observer it is classic "over the top" Americanism. You like a large vehicle, we will make comically large vehicles! You like hops in your beer? We will increase hop usage by 1000%! (Honestly some of the American independent IPA beers I tried in the 2000's practically required straining through your teeth…

I believe what they meant is that all studies on safety have been made before TCH got so predominant - which may make such studies irrelevant in the current scenario.

Furthermore, the lack of regulation in the black market has allowed growers to make their weed stronger (which makes them more competitive).

The proposed solution is to bring weed back into above board society and regulate it so the THC content needs to be at least disclosed but likely limited - or create different classes of weed based on that (and perhaps other criteria).

It's true that legalisation alone won't stop this behaviour though - it needs to be properly regulated which is something the US seem to have a bit of an aversion to.

Re: More Teens Who Use Marijuana Are Suffering from Psychosis

#53

Post by dns_snek »

happymellon wrote: post #20

> The average THC content of cannabis seized by the Drug Enforcement Administration was 15% in 2021, up from 4% in 1995. Many products advertise THC concentrations of up to 90%. This is really the key here as it means that previous studies that showed health benefits are completely irrelevant now. This isn't like the image of smoking pot in the basement from the 70's anymore. I'm watching the descent of my BIL's ment…

Is anyone controlling for how much people smoke today vs in the 70s, quantity-wise? Strength is relatively meaningless on its own, except for first timers who might get caught out. Our baseline genetic tolerance hasn't changed since the 70s.

People generally take/drink/smoke as much as it takes to get to where they want to be. I might drink a 0.5L of beer, or I might have a shot of liquor, but I won't have 0.5L of vodka because I'm a thinking human being who realizes that vodka is much stronger than beer. Ditto for low potency 70s cannabis vs fancy 90% extracts today.

Re: More Teens Who Use Marijuana Are Suffering from Psychosis

#54

Post by happymellon »

cassianoleal wrote: post #52
happymellon wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I am not disagreeing with any of it, your phrasing is just very aggressive which made me wonder. As an outside observer it is classic "over the top" Americanism. You like a large vehicle, we will make comically large vehicles! You like hops in your beer? We will increase hop usage by 1000%! (Honestly some of the American independent IPA beers I tried in the 2000's practically required straining through your teeth…

I believe what they meant is that all studies on safety have been made before TCH got so predominant - which may make such studies irrelevant in the current scenario. Furthermore, the lack of regulation in the black market has allowed growers to make their weed stronger (which makes them more competitive). The proposed solution is to bring weed back into above board society and regulate it so the THC content needs to…

> I believe what they meant is that all studies on safety have been made before TCH got so predominant - which may make such studies irrelevant in the current scenario.

Well that's what I originally said, but it was blasted as being propaganda from people who wanted to ban it. Which isn't what I said, I don't care if you ban it or regulate it, it's just overdosing on anything has side effects.

However if you have weak, medium, strong, very strong, how many Americans are going to be sensible and go for the weak to medium levels?

It's just not in the American culture and not the sort of thing I observe in my brother in law.

Re: More Teens Who Use Marijuana Are Suffering from Psychosis

#55

Post by NopeNoWay »

dns_snek wrote: post #53
happymellon wrote: post #20

> The average THC content of cannabis seized by the Drug Enforcement Administration was 15% in 2021, up from 4% in 1995. Many products advertise THC concentrations of up to 90%. This is really the key here as it means that previous studies that showed health benefits are completely irrelevant now. This isn't like the image of smoking pot in the basement from the 70's anymore. I'm watching the descent of my BIL's ment…

Is anyone controlling for how much people smoke today vs in the 70s, quantity-wise? Strength is relatively meaningless on its own, except for first timers who might get caught out. Our baseline genetic tolerance hasn't changed since the 70s. People generally take/drink/smoke as much as it takes to get to where they want to be. I might drink a 0.5L of beer, or I might have a shot of liquor, but I won't have 0.5L of vo…

How would anyone control it? That's more than kinda Big Brother. And the inverse issue with legalization, or even just legalization for medical use, is that it drives down the price, thus increasing the accessibility of the product still being sold illegally...you know, the totally unregulated stuff.

Re: More Teens Who Use Marijuana Are Suffering from Psychosis

#56

Post by NopeNoWay »

happymellon wrote: post #54
cassianoleal wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe what they meant is that all studies on safety have been made before TCH got so predominant - which may make such studies irrelevant in the current scenario. Furthermore, the lack of regulation in the black market has allowed growers to make their weed stronger (which makes them more competitive). The proposed solution is to bring weed back into above board society and regulate it so the THC content needs to…

> I believe what they meant is that all studies on safety have been made before TCH got so predominant - which may make such studies irrelevant in the current scenario. Well that's what I originally said, but it was blasted as being propaganda from people who wanted to ban it. Which isn't what I said, I don't care if you ban it or regulate it, it's just overdosing on anything has side effects. However if you have wea…

You're assumptions and extrapolations about American culture are on par with picking the "very strong" version of a stereotype...maybe go for the weak to medium level yourself.

Where are you from?

Re: More Teens Who Use Marijuana Are Suffering from Psychosis

#57

Post by dns_snek »

NopeNoWay wrote: post #55
dns_snek wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is anyone controlling for how much people smoke today vs in the 70s, quantity-wise? Strength is relatively meaningless on its own, except for first timers who might get caught out. Our baseline genetic tolerance hasn't changed since the 70s. People generally take/drink/smoke as much as it takes to get to where they want to be. I might drink a 0.5L of beer, or I might have a shot of liquor, but I won't have 0.5L of vo…

How would anyone control it? That's more than kinda Big Brother. And the inverse issue with legalization, or even just legalization for medical use, is that it drives down the price, thus increasing the accessibility of the product still being sold illegally...you know, the totally unregulated stuff.

I meant "control" in a scientific sense, it's the second most important variable that these articles never mention. Dosage of actives = Potency x Quantity.

If you say that potency of cannabis is 3x higher than it used to be, that's significant, but you need to qualify that by saying how much a typical user would consume in 1 sitting.

1) If people smoke as much as they did in the 70s then they're ingesting 3x as much THC. I believe that this can cause more mental health issues, but it has everything to do with the total consumption of THC, not potency of the product.

2) If they're smoking 1/3rd as much as they did in the 70s then their total THC intake hasn't changed and there must be other explanations for increased mental health issues. Perhaps most notably, severe mental health issues have been on the rise since the dawn of social media.

This lack of nuance makes the article alarmist rather than genuinely informative. It only serves to further perpetuate myths and simplistic takes like "cannabis is unsafe because it's too strong".

Re: More Teens Who Use Marijuana Are Suffering from Psychosis

#58

Post by ejstronge »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #30
ejstronge wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not disagreeing that cannabis may be a cause. This kind of article doesn’t offer any evidence toward the idea outside correlations - and this kind of correlation is very tenuous. A good example to demonstrate the idea is the outsized use of tobacco products amongst those with ADHD diagnoses. Do we immediately conclude that ADHD rates are influenced by the availability of cigarettes? Or can we instead ask how nic…

The article links to this Lancet study, which does start to go beyond just correlation. https://www.thelancet.com/article/S2215-0366(19)30048-3/full...

It is a compelling study, but retrospective trials, in general, aren't the correct design to answer this kind of question. I am not saying the results aren't accurate - just that in medicine, there have been instances where a prospective trial offers a different conclusion that that of prior, retrospective trials.

Next, I'm no statistician, but I have never heard of this kind of trial being proof of causality (it can only provide supportive data - but as above, we know that the results may prove incorrect in a stronger study design). There are a lot of confounding factors that make causality a difficult thing to prove in humans.

There is actually a way to prove causality in humans, and I suspect someone will do this for marijuana since it is a hot-button issue: https://archive.cdc.gov/#/details?url=https://www.cdc.gov/ge...

Re: More Teens Who Use Marijuana Are Suffering from Psychosis

#60

Post by denkmoon »

mpol wrote: post #51
jdietrich wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cannabis is a risk factor in schizophrenia, but it is a million miles from being the risk factor. Happy, healthy young people with stable family lives rarely use cannabis on a daily basis; conversely, people with troubled childhoods and pre-existing mental health problems are most at risk from heavy cannabis use. If the goal is preventing severe mental illness, then the best solution we've got right now is coordinate…

Can someone explain was this was being downvoted?

Cannabis is an emotive topic around here.
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