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"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

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Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#221

Post by Kadin »

asciilifeform wrote: post #182
rada wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, if anything, there is to be gained by encouraging women to join men in wasting their lives away in the IT salt mines, is another question entirely. You make more than your peers and your boss. It takes a couple days to land multiple job offers, in any economy, all you have to do is stop saying no. The work is intellectually gratifying and the results are immediately visible. You are largely immune from corporat…

> How can you be stuck in the salt mines... > The work is intellectually gratifying Most likely, this is where we differ. The only programming work that I find truly gratifying happens to be my 100%-non-monetizable life project. ( http://www.loper-os.org ) Everything else is just a way to pay the bills. That is to say, salt mine labor. In order to eat and pay rent, I burn my prime waking hours working on things other…

> just as the lack of female coal miners is likewise not a cruel injustice.

It is for someone who really wants to work in a coal mine. (Or, for a more germane example, someone who wants to be an infantry soldier.) Not everyone shares your priorities or ideas on what constitutes rewarding work. Some people might find a well-compensated 9-to-5 job slinging code under fluorescent lights to be just the ticket, and they should get to pursue that to the best of their ability on their own merits.

Restricting certain people from (or pushing certain people into) certain jobs based on their gender, skin color, or other irrelevant factors beyond their control is a fairness issue that transcends the particulars of the jobs that they are being restricted from.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#222

Post by Produce »

pharrington wrote: post #146
Produce wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying that until we can quantify how far Paris is from London, "Paris is far from London" is a pretty empty statement. Pretty sure that people understood that locations can be some distance away from each other before they could quantify exactly how much distance.

Huh? If someone knows neither where Paris nor London are, then yes, saying "Paris is far from London" indeed isn't useful. Is the distance between them a two hour drive? Do they lie half-way around the world from each other? Except in pathological cases, we barely know how physiology affects large scale behavior, let alone how particular brain functions influence how one's interests develop and how they excel at acti…

But we do know the net effects of sex on developing an interest in programming, namely that there is a negative correlation between being female and having said interest.

The question is what comprises this effect and how much of it is nature as opposed to nurture.

Basically, it depends on if you approach it from a hollistic perspective (where the effect of sex is the compound of physical capability and social influences and whatever else) or a narrow perspective (how does the Y chromosome influence analytical capability).

In the wide perspective, the answer is clear - there are indeed differences in how males and females process their environment (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9JNbJB0PhGEJ:...).

In the narrow perspective, it may never be clear for environment influences genetic expression (http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/environmental-influ...). In other words, it's possible that the genetics expressed in a human are themselves socially influenced. Or, for a bigger picture, an individual having a Y chromosome is treated differently by their environment which in turn results in a different genetic expression and, by extension, different preferences and capabilities. Or to put it yet another way, nature influences nuture which, in turn, influences nature. It's a feedback loop.

Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_psychology#Intelligence

To summarise the above link, there is greater variation in adult men's intelligence and they are over-represented at the tail end as well as having a higher average intelligence. So we do indeed know where both Paris and London are at this point, we just don't know enough about geology to guess how they got there.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#223

Post by pjscott »

sliverstorm wrote: post #131
ghurlman wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not just women either. It's ridiculous to assume that 100% of the best/qualified programmers would want to work at a place like that.

Be realistic, there isn't really any culture that 100% of the best/qualified programmers would want to work in.

But the thing is, a company don't need 100% of the best programmers; in the extreme case of a small startup, you just need a handful of them to get off the ground. If you can make an environment that a few people love, even if most people wouldn't like it, that could be a competitive advantage in hiring. Companies like the ones that the article criticizes may actually be doing themselves a favor, even as they alienate people who find that kind of environment off-putting.

Huh. When I started writing this comment, I did not expect to come to that conclusion.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#224

Post by MartinCron »

jgn wrote: post #190

I've been a "nice guy" my whole life, and sometimes it's socially detrimental (read: being too nice to girls that were hoping I'd be more than nice). At some level, I find the idea of brogramming attractive. Yes, I said it, and I know how awful that is. But consider that some very nerdy, possibly more insecure guys could look at this culture and decide they want to be part of it. They get to maintain their nerdiness…

I'm not saying this is happening to you, but for the longest time, I had this idea in my head "I'm nice, women don't find me attractive, therefore women don't find nice guys attractive. Look at that guy over there, he's an jerk to everyone and women love him. WTF?" It's easy conclusion to come to, but it's a dangerous logical fallacy that can cause you to hyper-focus on the wrong thing.

Different women find different things attractive, but one thing that is almost universally unattractive is desperation and a lack of confidence.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#225

Post by option_greek »

It's interesting that these 'sexism' articles draw huge number of comments. Usually that would mean there are two strong sides arguing. But since they are almost always one sided, I don't see the reason for this much of 'attention'. Whats the point in arguing, when there is no one to argue with...

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#226

Post by MartinCron »

tatsuke95 wrote: post #193

Sqoot and Geeklist may or not be sexist. If you think they are, respond accordingly by not applying for work with them, not using their products or actively campaigning against them. But don't assume that they're not allowed to be "sexist" (in quotations because what they've done isn't really "sexist", more like immature). They can run their companies any way they choose, within the laws of the land. They are under n…

They can run their companies any way they choose, within the laws of the land.

The laws of the land are pretty clear about creating hostile work environments.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#227

Post by MartinCron »

MBlume wrote: post #164
batista wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What I find particularly disconcerting about this Van Horn story is not that it happened (which is terrible in and of itself), but that this guy is 28, went through Digg (who never struck me as a company of idiots), already presented a sexist presentation, and still appears at SXSW either by invitation of him or Path. Why would Path or SXSW allow it? Did he not practice this presentation at Path before heading out?…

I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but yes, please, let's ostracize him. Our culture will be better off without him. Sometimes not pissing in the pool isn't enough, sometimes asking people nicely to stop isn't enough, sometimes you have to force people out of the pool if you want to swim somewhere that doesn't have piss in it.

I don't know if you made up the "pissing in the pool" metaphor for this kind of behavior, but it's just perfect. Thank you.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#228

Post by Kadin »

batista wrote: post #174
jsprinkles wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A conference isn't Comedy Central Presents, is it now? That's a roomful of people who came to learn, not to watch you hobble through an offensive routine. If I buy tickets to see Lewis Black, I know what I'm getting into, and Lewis Black isn't representing his startup at a trade show. No matter how you try to butter this guy up, what kind of jokes you tell is a large part of who you are, because you find them funny (…

> A conference isn't Comedy Central Presents, is it now? That's a roomful of people who came to learn, not to watch you hobble through an offensive routine. If I buy tickets to see Lewis Black, I know what I'm getting into, and Lewis Black isn't representing his startup at a trade show. Well, the distinction is not that clear cut, since humor belongs to every time in life --and especially in public gatherings and pre…

> since humor belongs to every time in life --and especially in public gatherings and presentations

Certain types of humor, perhaps. (Although I'd still argue that there are times in life when humor is not appropriate, and that a person who can't or doesn't know when to be serious is at least as irritating as someone who never lightens up.) But there's a time and place.

A big presentation, consisting of the general public, at a high-profile conference, when you are representing your company, which is part of an industry that has a poor image and reputation for sexism already, is really not the time to break out the locker-room humor. It's not quite breaking out the dead-baby jokes in the local NICU, but it's not a great idea either.

Also, if you're going to use humor in a presentation -- especially humor that is in the least bit envelope-pushy -- have some sort of a backup plan to scale it back if and when your first joke bombs. Sometimes, the audience you think that you were going to get just isn't the audience that you have. That might not be 'Presentations 101', but it's at least covered in the 200-level class.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#229

Post by asciilifeform »

secoif wrote: post #215
asciilifeform wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you be stuck in the salt mines... > The work is intellectually gratifying Most likely, this is where we differ. The only programming work that I find truly gratifying happens to be my 100%-non-monetizable life project. ( http://www.loper-os.org ) Everything else is just a way to pay the bills. That is to say, salt mine labor. In order to eat and pay rent, I burn my prime waking hours working on things other…

Sounds like you desperately need a new profession. If you don't do it for love, you're wasting your life.

I don't think you really understood my reply.

I have a life project. What is sometimes called a calling. (If you don't, you probably cannot process what I am saying and should disregard this post.)

So whenever I am doing some other work - anything at all - other than my calling - to pay for food and housing - I am acting under duress. Which isn't much fun. Of course, some kinds of forced labor suck more than others. I could be felling trees, or laying pipes, or something even more physically unpleasant. So overall, programming for money is far from the worst among possible fates.

And often, even persons who lack a calling and for whom all work is just work, "just switching professions" is not an option. For a different perspective on why many programmers stay in their line of work despite hating it, consider this book: "Desperate Journeys, Abandoned Souls: True Stories of Castaways and Other Survivors" (http://books.google.com/books/about/Desperate_Journeys_Aband...). It is largely about shipwrecked sailors. One of the more interesting facts about these is how many kept at their profession despite suffering wreck after wreck - witnessing murder, cannibalism, and various other unpleasant things. The explanation offered by the author is that sailors typically entered their trade during childhood, and were largely unfit (by their own estimate as well as that of others) for any other work.

I started programming when I was nine years old. And perhaps you did so, or know those who did, at an even earlier age. This is not necessarily true for all such people, but switching professions after having your whole development as a person wrapped around computing can be like being asked to switch to being left- (or right-, as the case may be) handed, late in life.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#230

Post by redthrowaway »

My problem with Van Horne's presentation is not that it was sexist or offensive, which it was, but rather that he made himself (and path) look like frat boy douchetards.

Here's the VP of Business Development for a company valued at $250MM, and he acts like a child. The sexism, to me, is less repugnant than the notion that an idiot like this would have such a high degree of authority in such a highly-valued company.

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