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Welcome to the end of college football as we know it

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Re: Welcome to the end of college football as we know it

#51
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are those sports accessible to anyone in the university who want to join? My knowledge is only founded by US movies/series and this is what what I get out of it is: - male good enough at sport: can participate in sport - good looking female: can participate in cheers/pompom girls - male not good enough /female not in beauty standard: can’t participate, go to the free urban basketball field. In the EU countries I know…

I've gathered that the situation in every country revolves around the available facilities/venues for sport, which is downstream of budgets and financing: in the US the majority of the divergence starts around high school level, with better-funded districts and private schools sometimes boasting rather spectacular facilities; since every US state sets their own education policies, there can be huge variance in what's…

I much much prefer the European football model of professional sports clubs that run programs reaching all the way down to 5-year-olds. These clubs use profits from their pro teams to build their programs and are in no way associated with schools.

Mixing sports with education beyond basic PE is a recipe for disaster, as you can pretty clearly see by the underperformance of American high school education.

I grew up in deep football land in Texas, and my experience as a non-athlete was that football consumed nearly the entire budget for non-academics in the district. Everything else was subsisting on peanuts while the football program hired dozens of coaches and built a new $30m stadium. Probably 50% of my high school teachers were coaches who were just doing double duty as teachers for some extra cash.

Re: Welcome to the end of college football as we know it

#53

As an outsider with close to zero knowledge of American football, the spectacle of college athletics seems bizarre. I mean, I understand the old principle of _mens sana in corpore sano_ but it’s a stretch to imagine college athletics serving that goal for all but a very few students. I don’t doubt that the system has produced some academic success stories but it must be the exceptional case. Instead, the whole system…

Most college sports are just students who happen to also compete in a sport that is most likely earning negative revenue and they get scholarships in return. The NCAA and other associations, along with the school's athletic department itself, all get non-profit status and are eligible for tax-free donations and government funding because promoting amateurism in sport is a specifically designated carveout in the tax code.

Men's football and basketball are entirely different stories. Of the North American big four, hockey and baseball have always had robust minor leagues and kids are drafted into them straight out of high school. Football and basketball, on the other hand, have pro leagues that have historically relied upon university competition to develop athletes ready for the big leagues. The NBA (American pro basketball) started up a developmental league something like maybe a decade back or so it now calls the G League, but historical inertia being what it is, there is a much larger following for universities and the best players will still tend to do at least a year there, which I think is still the minimum required. The NFL (American pro football) won't draft you until you're at least three years past high school graduation, so the players there have no choice and need to go to college.

There's a lot driving it. Alumni pride, even regional and civic pride in places without pro teams in the same sport. Often the best school in each state is the flagship land grant public school and maybe a large private school, and these are usually not located in major metro areas that also have pro teams. There are a few exceptions like University of Washington, which played in the national championship game two days ago, is in Seattle. USC has one of the historically dominant teams and is in Los Angeles. But looking at the other top schools from this year, you're looking at Athens, GA, Ann Arbor, MI, Tuscaloosa, AL, Austin, TX, all places that do not have pro teams.

Something people miss is the university athletic department is often, even usually, its own separate non-profit corporation from the school. So, contrary to a lot of takes, it actually has its own revenue stream and its own expenses separate from the larger university. Having a very good football and/or basketball team can draw in enough revenue that the athletic department at the very best schools is typically self-funding. They may as well just be pro franchises, except they don't pay taxes and the athletes nominally have to attend enough classes to not flunk out, though they also don't need to graduate.

It's a farce of a system at the very top, but most athletes at most schools are actually amateurs just looking to do something healthy and competitive while they learn and get some of their school paid for, and the US law requires an equal number of scholarships awarded to men and women, so thanks to there often being men's sports that generate a lot of revenue, and there not being such a thing right now as women's football, the presence of a very successful football program can fund a ton of scholarship for obscure women's sports that give girls a chance to get a free education if they're willing to learn and practice them. Everything from fencing to bowling.

Re: Welcome to the end of college football as we know it

#54

As an outsider with close to zero knowledge of American football, the spectacle of college athletics seems bizarre. I mean, I understand the old principle of _mens sana in corpore sano_ but it’s a stretch to imagine college athletics serving that goal for all but a very few students. I don’t doubt that the system has produced some academic success stories but it must be the exceptional case. Instead, the whole system…

> I don’t doubt that the system has produced some academic success stories but it must be the exceptional case.

I'd guess the opposite. IMO, too much attention gets put on the top tier of athletes in the most popular sports.

I'd guess that well over 50% see education as the primary benefit. Most of these students realize that they don't have a professional playing career ahead of them.

Re: Welcome to the end of college football as we know it

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College athletics is a pretty good system for promoting lesser-followed sports that would have difficulty maintaining an organized league -- team volleyball, swimming, field hockey, rowing, etc -- because it provides infrastructure and funding that would unlikely be available if reliant on revenue. On the other hand, "amateur" leagues for popular sports (football, basketball) being associated with colleges is extreme…

Are those sports accessible to anyone in the university who want to join? My knowledge is only founded by US movies/series and this is what what I get out of it is: - male good enough at sport: can participate in sport - good looking female: can participate in cheers/pompom girls - male not good enough /female not in beauty standard: can’t participate, go to the free urban basketball field. In the EU countries I know…

I wouldn't take too much from the way film and television depicts school dynamics in the US. I'm not going to claim to speak for everyone, but my experience was not much like what you see.

First, while cliques are definitely a thing and kids can be mean to each other, there is nothing like a strict jock/geek breakdown where athletes are never smart and they hate and pick on each other. I'm here now, competed in academic olympics and spelling bees as a kid, got the top SAT scores at my high school, and also lettered in four sports. The honors classes were filled with preppies and jocks. I was tall and athletic and girls liked me, but most of my friends and my now wife were all goth kids and I never bullied anyone.

It's not even remotely true that you needed to be attractive to be in sports or a cheerleader, either. Neither men nor women need to be any good to play in high school. The teams are totally open to anyone, but competitions can only dress so many in a given game and you might never play. Something track or cross-country can usually find room for everyone willing to try. There are plenty of sports for girls and all the athletic or attractive girls are not necessarily cheerleaders.

Universities are an entirely different story. They usually have intramural sports, which means they are not part of any formal athletic association, don't have paid coaches, and anyone can join and play. The intercollegiate teams that represent the school, however, are mostly scholarship athletes. They have limited slots. People can try out and join the team if they qualify without being recruited or getting a scholarship, but you need to be good. "Good enough" is a pretty high standard at the university level except for obscure sports no one plays. I won two state championships at the high school level, not individual but I was on the varsity team, and I never even tried to compete in college outside of intramurals. My niece was a national champion in cheer in high school and didn't play any sport in college.

At no point is sports participation mandatory, but all school systems I'm aware require some kind of "physical education." There is a general class offered where a coach just teaches arbitrary sports and exercise and most students take that. I grew up thinking that competing in a real sport exempted you from this class, because it did at my school, but I guess that isn't universally the case because I found out my wife competed in sports but still had to take the PE class as well. So I guess that depends on the school system. It's different in every state, maybe even every district.

As for "free urban basketball field," we call that pickup ball. It's open to whoever gets there first and often teams are picked on the spot, but usually the same people who up pretty regularly and know each other well. I played a ton of pickup ball as a kid. My summers were often spent going to the park and playing basketball for 14 hours before I came home. There were some people you see there you don't see in school, but at least half the regulars also played for the school and they played pickup ball in addition, not instead of.

I'm still working on my first kid (actually have an IVF appt in two hours), but as far as I understood youth sport these days, the more competitive level has unfortunately become a lot less accessible than it used to be. There are national travel leagues now that get sponsored by rich parents and participation can often be quite expensive between the travel and the equipment, so rich kids can have quite an advantage. Obviously, you need access to ice to play hockey, access to water to swim, things like that. Basketball courts, soccer fields (football, but Americans call it soccer), and baseball fields tend to be available everywhere, but playing as part of a real team will probably cost money except in basketball, where the lower-level amateur leagues will still scout and sponsor kids from pickup courts because the pro stakes are so much higher that pro teams don't just want rich kids to play, they want the actual best athletes. Baseball still has pretty good free little leagues for kids, but you need your own bat and glove at least. If you're into running, you can at least do that anywhere.

Re: Welcome to the end of college football as we know it

#56
post #4

Now that Stanford and Cal are in the ACC, there will be vastly more air travel, having environmental impact and lost time for academic study, which these two universities actually care about, and consequent fatigue for the players. Zoom classes on the long flights, or sleep? Same for other left (over) coast teams, but less impact.

As far as I knew, the plan for Cal/Stanford was to have all their non money making sports games (outside of their rivalry) at Southern Methodist in Texas. So the football and basketball games were to be played 'normally', but lacrosse and soccer, for example, were to be at SMU. I'd also heard that a lot of the 'lesser' sports were just going to be keeping on with the PAC12 league anyways, things like water polo which the ACC pretty much doesn't play.

That said, with FSU really trying to get out of the ACC, who knows.

But you do bring up a good point on the travel times. Most of the 'lesser' sports' players are at the universities for the academics. Especially Stanford due to their admissions model. Take a player in a sport that is an Olympic sport, who now has access to some funds from the NIL. Say swimming or something. They get a lot of cash from Speedo for the NIL as they are likely to win some medals. Now they can hire a real law firm to argue for them against the army of lawyers from the school and they now have a real shot at winning. The title-9 violations from these long distance travel arrangements may not be de jure but a good lawyer can argue that they are de facto violations. And now those schools are paying big money out. And now they can't just cancel all sports other than the money makers because these athletes now have access to real money and real lawyers.

What a mess!

Re: Welcome to the end of college football as we know it

#57
"But in the long term, when you pattern yourself after the NFL in order to get some of their television juice, when you jettison the traditions and orthodoxies that made people fall in love with the sport in the first place, you stop being college football: You simply become Minor League NFL. And no one cares about minor league anything."

This pretty much sums-up college football today: it has no future. When you throw out all of the traditions you're left with a bunch of kids playing football. I can watch that on Friday night for a lot less money - and support my local community.

Re: Welcome to the end of college football as we know it

#58

As an outsider with close to zero knowledge of American football, the spectacle of college athletics seems bizarre. I mean, I understand the old principle of _mens sana in corpore sano_ but it’s a stretch to imagine college athletics serving that goal for all but a very few students. I don’t doubt that the system has produced some academic success stories but it must be the exceptional case. Instead, the whole system…

College football and basketball seem mainly to function as publicity for the schools and, when the teams are winning, help them to get the alumni to donate more. And serve as entertainment for the non athlete students. It's profoundly weird and completely unrelated to the academic functions of the university. Lots of people confuse schools with good sports teams for schools with strong academics.

Football and basketball fund all the other sports. That's important because there are still many kids getting their tuition covered with a sports scholarship, which, in turn, is being paid for by the football and basketball programs.

All that to say there is some academic good that comes out of all this.

Re: Welcome to the end of college football as we know it

#59
I see that there are a lot of 'factors' that are not used to giving ground that are being set up against each other, and I don't think it's going to end well or be very predictable.

1) Money: The sports of football and basketball are wildly popular in the US. Our appetite for football is effectively bottomless. Putting that much of it on the air is going to test how bottomless it is. Additionally, the 'lesser' sports that aren't in the TV money making arena are still going to have access to NIL money. This is especially true with Olympic sports, where every four years or so, these elite athletes are going to get a bust of cash from sponsors. For the 'lesser' sports, they will finally have longer term spokespersons that can keep the hype going through the off Olympic years, and the athletes will want this as well. Turning these athletes into money making machines is not going to be something that sponsors want to get rid of.

2) Laws: There are massive Title-9 violations all over the place. Lets look at Stanford students in particular. Their admissions policy is a bit unique in that sports are 'not considered' in admits (who know how true that is for football). The 'lesser' sports' athletes really are there for the education, mostly. Now, with the very long travel distances to the east coast or to SMU, that is putting a de facto undue burden on the women's teams, especially if they aren't flying the same airlines as the men's football team. Combine this with the NIL money that these 'lesser' sports are gong to get, and they can finally hire a real law firm that can go toe-to-toe with the army of lawyers from the university.

3) Banks: There are many schools that have decided to recently re-vamp their fields and facilities. Those are on long term mortgages and other contracts with the various banks of the nation. If these teams start sucking, or are in bad conferences, then there is a huge incentive to change that by the school. Still, there are going to be a lot of teams that just aren't going to do well. And their mortgages are going to start looking like really really bad ideas from the bank's perspective.

4) Governing boards: Some schools are governed by a board of regents. Some are governed by just a president. Some are governed by the state legislature. Some are governed by the Catholic church. All of these petite tyrannies and oligarchies are used to getting their way. Now, they are all going to be competing with each other for giant piles of money. Governing entities that have more legal powers than others are going to be incentivized to use those legal powers to try to grab more of that money. And once one does something galling, all the others are going to be forced to follow suit and try to outbid that gall.

5) Mothers: Mommas don't want their boys playing football anymore. The game is largely seen as too violent and damaging. Yeah, not all the mothers see that, by any means. But the statistics point to a marked and continuing decrease in the number of boys playing. This is a big threat to the pipeline going into football. Other sports aren't really seeing this issue however, outside of women's soccer. But as most of the issues with the conferences are centered around football, mothers end up being a factor.

6) Attention: This is the main issue, I think. The dynamics are pushing schools to have billion dollar programs to survive. These things kinda end up as power law distributions. And as programs get more money, they tend to win more. The system will settle on programs that are very successful and very expensive. To say yet another way, winners will keep winning. Without some sort of balancing factors (player draft, players' unions, salary caps, etc) the winning teams will largely be known before the season starts, just based on expenditures. That's where the attention issue comes in. Who is going to want to watch a game, let alone a season, where you already know the outcomes? Yes, football is uniquely random and therefore exciting. But putting a billion dollars out there on 18-22 year olds is not what 'smart money' wants to do. That kinda gets back to 1) Money, but I hope you see where this goes. Carefully built teams will minimize the risk to the money and therefore the game will be boring. No one wants to watch one of 10 teams play in the playoffs yet again, year after year, with the same heavy favorites again and again. Without some sort of balancing, the same teams are just going to keep on winning as their power law distributed expenditures dictate.

Any one of these factors could easily become the dominate factor in the new college sports landscape, and many will change with time, especially as things wind their way through legislatures and courts. Who knows how things are going to go. All I know is that the action off the field is going to be just as exciting as the action on it.

Re: Welcome to the end of college football as we know it

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College athletics is a pretty good system for promoting lesser-followed sports that would have difficulty maintaining an organized league -- team volleyball, swimming, field hockey, rowing, etc -- because it provides infrastructure and funding that would unlikely be available if reliant on revenue. On the other hand, "amateur" leagues for popular sports (football, basketball) being associated with colleges is extreme…

Are those sports accessible to anyone in the university who want to join? My knowledge is only founded by US movies/series and this is what what I get out of it is: - male good enough at sport: can participate in sport - good looking female: can participate in cheers/pompom girls - male not good enough /female not in beauty standard: can’t participate, go to the free urban basketball field. In the EU countries I know…

Your knowledge of the US does not depict the reality. Title IX is a 1972 civil rights law that requires equal opportunities in, among other things, athletic opportunities in educational programs.

> "With regard to Title IX’s participation requirements, a school can meet the standard via three independent tests. The first test is a mathematical safe harbor. If the school offers athletic participation opportunities (number of individual athlete participation slots, not numbers of teams) proportional to the numbers of males and females in the general student body, the school meets the participation standard. If the school does not meet this mathematical test, it may be deemed in compliance if it can (1) demonstrate consistent expansion of opportunities for the underrepresented gender over time or (2) show that the athletic program fully met the interests and abilities of the underrepresented gender. The courts have ruled that “boys are more interested in sports than girls” is not an acceptable defense to lack of equitable participation opportunities."

> "Under Title IX there are no sport exclusions or exceptions, so football is included under the law. Individual participation opportunities (numbers of athletes participating rather than number of sports) in all men’s sports and all women’s sports are counted in determining whether a school meets the Title IX participation standard. The basic philosophical underpinning of Title IX is that there cannot be an economic justification for discrimination. The school cannot maintain that there are revenue production or other considerations that mandate that male athletes receive better treatment or participation opportunities than female athletes. A good analogy would be that a school cannot say that it cannot afford to provide wheelchair access for students with physical disabilities as required under the Americans With Disabilities Act because the football team needs the money in order to maintain its current level of revenue production. Similarly, a school cannot say that it cannot afford to provide participation opportunities for an underrepresented gender."

https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/advocacy/what-is-titl...

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