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The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu

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Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#141

Post by knodi123 »

akoboldfrying wrote: post #62
eurleif wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The police don't call you if they are trying to serve a warrant, they show up. But be aware that the converse isn't true: someone who shows up at your door claiming to be law enforcement with a warrant isn't necessarily legitimate. E.g.: https://madison.com/news/local/crime-courts/jack-mcquestion-...

I don't trust anyone to be a police officer unless there's another police officer present certifying that they are in fact a police officer, and another police officer present certifying that that person is a police officer, and so on, up to a piece of paper listing hundreds of "root" police officers around the world that was prepared in an unspecified way by an unknown programmer involved in making whichever browser…

lol, point taken, but your metaphor fell apart in the end.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#142

Post by knodi123 »

TrackerFF wrote: post #92

Yeah, I've seen this twice in person. A friend (he was experiencing psychosis, so that played a big part) fell prey to some bog-standard love scam when some bot added him on facebook. He ended up sending his life savings to the scammers. Everyone around him were warning him, trying to intervene - but to no avail. In the end he got mad at everyone trying to show the warning signs. Started ranting about people trying t…

oof. that really hits home, I've seen similar problems (although not with such extreme results as your example).

cognition-disrupting disorders are so frustrating and scary!

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#143

Post by godelski »

alexpotato wrote: post #89
godelski wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish there was a certificate authority run by the government. In the past we didn't have the capacity to do a lot of these things but now we can make many improvements, even if incomplete. Can we not have something like a CA but for, at minimum, officials? Or something like keybase for identity proofs? This seems quite invaluable. Couldn't this even be done within the phone, mail, and email systems? I don't…

You can call 911 or your local police station and they can verify if there is a law enforcement officer at your front door. I guess someone could run a Stingray and re-route your 911 call to a hostile party but at that point, I don't think a CA would help you given that they are right outside your front door.

I don't really feel this is an option. And it still is a weak signal. Who knows their local police phone number? Do you know that for the area you're traveling through? 911 is flooded enough. Can I get an image of the officer's face to verify?

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#144

Post by godelski »

plussed_reader wrote: post #83
godelski wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish there was a certificate authority run by the government. In the past we didn't have the capacity to do a lot of these things but now we can make many improvements, even if incomplete. Can we not have something like a CA but for, at minimum, officials? Or something like keybase for identity proofs? This seems quite invaluable. Couldn't this even be done within the phone, mail, and email systems? I don't…

A certificate authority; like a sitting judge?

Hello judge, sorry for calling you at 2am, but there's a police officer at my door. Can you verify their badge number and then describe to me what they look like so I can verify that this is indeed the person they say they are? K thx bye

Sounds like a great solution....

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#145

Post by scrubs »

PoignardAzur wrote: post #127
scrubs wrote: post #11

Throughout the 1960s to the mid-1980s it used to fashionable because it was so helpful to reconstitute manufacturing corporate culture around a three axis orientation of quality through SPC, of customers, and profit. This was done to avoid the distortions that ruin companies in the medium and long term including bankruptcy, layoffs, junk products, and all the related human BS that comes with it: corporate politics, i…

I think this is what Robert Jackall refers to as "morall mazes", company cultures that are so far removed from practical reality and ethical behavior that it's impossible for a good-faith actor to navigate them.

Agree! The human element book I referenced above deals with those issues in a very practical way as does Ishikawa's TQM. One thing Schutz points out in a particularly striking way: issues of trust and openness are often the last thing to ever get dealt with in an organization.

Players are a side effect of this. They work from a cynical base that a lot of office stuff is BS and as a professional --- not a naive nube --- they gotta hustle too . And that is what makes them savy; a pro who's seen it all. Instead they further erode climate.

It's the office equivalent to news headlines:

"The dirty secret behind ..."

"What you where never told about ..."

"The real truth about..."

"The official ____ about ____..."

The implication is clear: you are repeatedly lied to; you can't trust what you see or hear.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#146

Post by akira2501 »

ithkuil wrote: post #131
akira2501 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shame and pride are intrinsic human nature. Why do you think this is true?

Because otherwise we wouldn't feel the need to drill it to our kids in school. Like potty training, obviously if it wasn't for parents teaching basic human stuff our kids would just shit and piss everywhere casually. /s We tend to overestimate how much substance we're teaching to other humans, while what we are often doing is passing down "form". And "form" is very important because that's what our social instinct fo…

> Because otherwise we wouldn't feel the need to drill it to our kids in school.

That's pure tautology. It's also the case that no professional agrees with you that these emotions are "intrinsic."

> We tend to overestimate how much substance we're teaching to other humans

What are you basing these assertions on? Personal feeling or are you drawing from some resource that I could also study, because so far, I can't find anything that backs up your points.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#147

Post by jstarfish »

godelski wrote: post #143
alexpotato wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can call 911 or your local police station and they can verify if there is a law enforcement officer at your front door. I guess someone could run a Stingray and re-route your 911 call to a hostile party but at that point, I don't think a CA would help you given that they are right outside your front door.

I don't really feel this is an option. And it still is a weak signal. Who knows their local police phone number? Do you know that for the area you're traveling through? 911 is flooded enough. Can I get an image of the officer's face to verify?

What the hell are you talking about? If there's a stranger at your door claiming to be a cop, and there is cause for suspicion, just fucking call 911.

If it's neither safe nor convenient to look up the non-emergency number, it's an emergency. Any armed stranger at your door will only wait so long before forcing escalation.

The alternative is: while you're ringing the non-emergency line, he sticks a gun in your face, "arrests" you, and helpfully hangs up the phone. You didn't transmit E911 data-- and nobody will come check on you.

If your iPhone is allowed to call 911 over bogus telemetry, it's good faith enough for two humans to use it to verify officer credentials.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#148

Post by godelski »

jstarfish wrote: post #147
godelski wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really feel this is an option. And it still is a weak signal. Who knows their local police phone number? Do you know that for the area you're traveling through? 911 is flooded enough. Can I get an image of the officer's face to verify?

What the hell are you talking about? If there's a stranger at your door claiming to be a cop, and there is cause for suspicion, just fucking call 911. If it's neither safe nor convenient to look up the non-emergency number, it's an emergency. Any armed stranger at your door will only wait so long before forcing escalation. The alternative is: while you're ringing the non-emergency line, he sticks a gun in your face,…

What I'm talking about is that you haven't solved the verification problem by calling 911. They likely aren't aware of all dispatched units, especially in your district. Supposing they did, it also doesn't let me know that the person I'm taking to is an officer, but just that there is an officer dispatched. How do I verify that these are the same?

The system I want is basically something simple citizens can use and can become common practice. Such as cop shows up and you scan their badge with your phone. Why? Because such procedure can kill police impersonation before it starts. It creates a high level of difficulty to perform that impersonation. Honestly, this should even be possible without an Internet connection. There is also an added benefit for both parties. The scanning of the badge logs an interaction and can make both parties accountable.

That's the alternative. The alternative isn't do nothing when I'm literally asking for something else. Get the context of the thread before replying. It's like you're pretending my original cert question doesn't exist.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#149

Post by fsckboy »

dragontamer wrote: post #14

I've put myself into classical con situations out of curiosity. Even when I purposefully seek to be conned, it's embarrassing to have it happen. In my case, simple subway con artist performing the classic magic trick where you bet money to determine where the queen is under three cards. As a hobbyist magician I'm able to follow him as the subway scammer performs the drop, switching the queen for another card. I'm not…

>I'm not ready for the smooth talking however that the con artist employees afterwards. It's a humbling experience but one that I'm happy to have lost real $$$ so that I can remember the lesson for the rest of my life.

3 card monte on the street? from what I understand, you learn the real lesson if you find the Q and win the $$$: they'll follow you and beat your ass, you're not allowed to win that game, and you're not walking away with their money.

the point of that "game" is to take money from suckers/tourists. they have no tolerance for people who "know how it works". it's not a game, it's a con. Unless it's a big crowd, most of the people standing there are in on it, that's who follows you. They also play the game for show.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#150

Post by harimau777 »

lupusreal wrote: post #140
harimau777 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't resort to personal attacks. The issue with creating a communist society inside a capitalist society is that it is only possible for people who already have access to capital. People without access to capital do not have that option. If it is unjust to exclude others from private property or if the person who owns the private property gained in unjustly, then it is unjust if only those who own private pro…

There are plenty of people with reasonable amounts of capital who are enamoured with communism. If you can't make it work after pooling the resources of a dozen or so people, that just proves that you have no business managing the pooled resources of an entire nation. The real problem with implementing communism, embedded in a capitalist society or otherwise, is you inevitability need to use violence to force your ne…

You are ignoring all of the violence that has happened under capitalism in the form of colonialism, slavery, resource wars, and homelessness.
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