Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#91

Post by tonyedgecombe » Mon, Jan 08, 2024, 6:01 PM UTC

Ajedi32 wrote: post #80

starbugs wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> kind of flippant accusation No. I rather meant to indicate that it might have been a good decision. There are some studies here from Germany that suggest that heat pump systems can lead to higher total CO2 emissions than using alternative systems. (I think it was compared to an infrared heating system with solar installed.) A high price of the hardware itself and the associated costs of installing and maintaining s…

This is a thing I've been wondering about for a while now. Energy and labor are the biggest factors that drive supply chain costs in just about every industry. The more you spend on something, the more energy and labor likely went into creating it. Energy production obviously emits carbon. Some methods more than others, but with how immensely complex the supply chains are for most products (a global market with mater…

In other words money is a reasonable approximation for energy and hence carbon emissions, at least at an individual level.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#92

Post by theluketaylor » Mon, Jan 08, 2024, 6:08 PM UTC

jeffalyanak wrote: post #71

I'm a fan of heat pumps, but as a Canadian living in the UK I think the _first_ steps should be things like finding and patching up drafts, using double-glazed windows with low-e coatings, and improving insulation. Those will let you get the most out of an efficient heat pump.

It's insane that buildings on the historic register are not permitted to install modern, efficient windows as mentioned in the article. Replicating the look 90%+ should be pretty easy, so why on earth would owners be banned from improving the efficiency of their home in a nearly transparent way.

Insulation and air sealing should be heavily subsidized. Regardless of the energy source, using less energy in the first place has a compounding carbon benefit for the lifespan of the building (which is almost certainly multiples of the lifespan of the current heat source).

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#93

Post by theluketaylor » Mon, Jan 08, 2024, 6:12 PM UTC

Gare wrote: post #72

Faaak wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. For example Daikin Altherma, but I'm sure that every brand has a compatible system

It seems like it requires an external unit. I cannot easily mount an external unit. The bathroom is far from external walls, boiler is connected to the shared air intake in the wall that leads to the roof. So this doesn't look like a drop-in replacement.

Outdoor units are pretty flexible in the sorts of places they can be mounted and the insulated refrigerant lines can be run to the interior of buildings fairly easily. Don't just assume a solution can't work until an expert says no.

And even if you can't hook into your existing radiators wall mounted mini splits don't require extensive interior changes to function (plus you get cooling as well)

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#94

Post by saltcured » Mon, Jan 08, 2024, 6:27 PM UTC

charlieyu1 wrote: post #31

starbugs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.

Why is it so expensive to set up? Air conditioning seems to be everywhere in Asia and insulation is basically nonexistent

I think the answer depends largely on the retrofitting cost, then less so on local market conditions. I.e. a niche market has fewer trained technicians and higher margins.

But the retrofitting issues can be substantial, particularly when it triggers updated building code enforcement. An older house with natural gas heating and no air-conditioning may need major electrical upgrades to support a heat pump system. Others may require ducts to be replaced. Or, other invasive work to meet newer insulation standards. Some houses might have some fluid-based radiant heating and require rework because it was designed for the higher fluid temperatures of a boiler while a heat pump system would use lower temperatures and higher flow rates.

Also, many homes may be subject to some kind of aesthetic rules which rule out the mini-split systems popular in Asia. The owner cannot just bolt new equipment or conduits to the exterior of the house. Instead, the above retrofitting tasks turn into major renovation jobs to tear apart interior walls.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#95

Post by Ajedi32 » Mon, Jan 08, 2024, 6:36 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #91

Ajedi32 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a thing I've been wondering about for a while now. Energy and labor are the biggest factors that drive supply chain costs in just about every industry. The more you spend on something, the more energy and labor likely went into creating it. Energy production obviously emits carbon. Some methods more than others, but with how immensely complex the supply chains are for most products (a global market with mater…

In other words money is a reasonable approximation for energy and hence carbon emissions, at least at an individual level.

Yes thank you, that's a very succinct way of putting it.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#96

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 08, 2024, 6:46 PM UTC

Ynottingten wrote: post #81

starbugs wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Were these studies, or "studies" that were effectively marketing for Russian supplied gas I guess your next comment will be that the Fraunhofer Institut has been infiltrated by Russians? https://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ibp/ibp-neu/de/dok... And here's a video with all the information on different studies, universities and companies involved. This is basically a guy helping german real estate companies to…

The first link doesn't say anything about co2 at all. It talks about some inefficiencies. This doesn't mean its a bad choice and there are not many alternatives anyway. Not everyone wants an infrared based heating system or a air basesd (which would also work with a heat pump, air to air). The second link is an interview were there is already a counter video. Rieck does not verify all sources and interviews a broad s…

[deleted]

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#97

Post by grotorea » Mon, Jan 08, 2024, 6:50 PM UTC

Ajedi32 wrote: post #80

starbugs wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> kind of flippant accusation No. I rather meant to indicate that it might have been a good decision. There are some studies here from Germany that suggest that heat pump systems can lead to higher total CO2 emissions than using alternative systems. (I think it was compared to an infrared heating system with solar installed.) A high price of the hardware itself and the associated costs of installing and maintaining s…

This is a thing I've been wondering about for a while now. Energy and labor are the biggest factors that drive supply chain costs in just about every industry. The more you spend on something, the more energy and labor likely went into creating it. Energy production obviously emits carbon. Some methods more than others, but with how immensely complex the supply chains are for most products (a global market with mater…

> Obviously this can't be universally true. It's a bit of a hand wavy argument, and the reductio ad absurdum conclusion would be that reducing global carbon emissions is impossible (which obviously isn't true). But I still think its something worth considering before making individual purchasing decisions based on perceived "greenness" to the demerit of price.

I think the reductio ad absurdum conclusion here is the degrowth-sounding argument that we need less economic activity to reduce emissions.

One thing your analysis may be missing is what you're going to do with the money saved.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#98

Post by pastage » Mon, Jan 08, 2024, 7:36 PM UTC

starbugs wrote: post #74

pastage wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not read German, but the literature is from 2008-2016 which does coincide with the peak of natural gas hysteria. Money might seem neutral but a big part of oil money has gone to lobbying, as was recently highlighted by Saudi oil fund leaks. With that said you need to say more, we have been using heat pumps for decades and it is a great thing. The Nordics has cheaper electricity though. My point is it all depends…

> big part of oil money has gone to lobbying That may be true (as it probably is for most big industries), but what does it have to do with what I have been saying? I have been talking about a comparison between two electric systems. The Fraunhofer paper just provides evidence that the COP of air heat pumps is much worse than advertised on average. If you are talking about the parent comment that said that they insta…

Great for the environment here since the nineties, but as you say you have to take capacity planning into account. That the german grid is so sold on carbohydrates is a problem and a bias in the debate over the last decades. I say this as a neighbor who does not read much german.

I think we are in agreement on the facts just discussing the issue from different viewpoints.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#99

Post by tomatocracy » Mon, Jan 08, 2024, 7:43 PM UTC

garblegarble wrote: post #28

Faaak wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK Why ? UK is well above freezing (and even them, heat pumps _work_ below freezing, even with a COP > 1). So I'm curious about your assumption

My understanding (and I'd love to be wrong here because it annoys me that I can't take advantage of high efficiency systems) is that: 1. Existing UK homes use radiators that would need to be replaced with larger radiators with an air-to-water heat pump, due to the water not being as hot as a traditional radiator system. Some of this is cost (replacing radiators), some of this is simply not having the space - many rad…

Yes. The other issue in terms of housing stock is that a lot of the more recent housing stock has nowhere to put a cylinder for hot water, which means it's not practical to use HPs for hot water for showers etc. This either means replacing showers with instantaneous resistive heating-based "power" showers or keeping two systems even if you can retrofit with an air to air HP for space heating - adding cost and reducing savings available.

But the biggest barrier is the relative cost of gas vs electricity in the UK. Gas is about 4x cheaper than electricity per kWh so even with a COP of 4 the efficiency savings will take a long time to pay back capital cost.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#100

Post by Projectiboga » Mon, Jan 08, 2024, 8:07 PM UTC

bongobingo1 wrote: post #11

robertlagrant wrote: post #2

The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know if he'll ever make the money back, and the third didn't like it.

We recently replaced our old leaking big-ass-tank gas hotwater service with a continuous flow gas system. I looked into heat pumps, but cost the of the device + installation + an electrician to run a new line (seemed that would be needed) ... I dont think it was ever going to break even over the rated life span of the system. The cheap ones were still 3 times the price of a gas system, just for the hardware. That and…

Instant on tank-less water heaters are a good step on energy efficiency and emissions reduction. There are a couple of tricks, it is best to be 'pilot-less' and the other is the gas line usually has to be larger, so it isn't always a drop in replacement. This is due to it having to heat the water quickly using a higher amount of gas while running.