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Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

proton.me

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Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#91

Post by Ekaros »

hef19898 wrote: post #83
Ekaros wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your shares can have voting rights. And it is up to you to utilize them. Or choose a way to invest that they are correctly utilized.

So, I hold, I am super rich you know, 10% of Airbus. Now Airbus is fined billions by authorities for violating export control laws, engaged in bribery and other stuff. Some that was done by local sales entities. How exactly can I, even as one of the biggest shareholders, influence those operational daily decisions? Also, you are aware of the idea of having limited liability companies?

Yes, your liability would be limited to whatever is the value of that 10%. Own a company that does bad enough thing, lose the whole holding in the company.

You could participate in electing a board. That elects CEO and other C-level that spend all their waking hours ensuring that no one in company breaks rules. I think that is absolutely reasonable thing to ask, specially with pay they are getting.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#92

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

ycdxvjp wrote: post #74
tokai wrote: post #40

The only way to tackle this is to put leadership in prison. If that is not possible give them the oligarch experience; frozen assets, interpol warrant, etc. It makes no sense that breaking the law gives milder consequences just as long as your crime is transnational and very extensive in scope.

There is an endless supply of corporate robots to replace them. Instead there are options: 1. Govt walks in and just nationalizes them ala Japan post world war 2 where Mitsubishi, Sumimoto etc where just turned into puppets over night As in hostile takeover to influence how they use their loot. 2. Govt can then use the SpaceX model to disrupt brick and mortar sectors world wide (cement, steel, ships, planes, energy,…

> Instead there are options:

Neither of these options are what has been commonly referred to as “piercing the corporate veil”: hold the shareholders accountable for the decisions of their hired executives. We’ve been talking about this exact issue so long that it has a name we’ve stopped using.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil

If a company is being fined millions of dollars it’s likely because they made decisions which should reasonably land those responsible in prison.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#93

Post by hef19898 »

ethbr1 wrote: post #89
hef19898 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revenue. Hard to manipulate (and doing so is illegal in itself), easy to measure and the top line is where it hurts. And no, I don't think fines should be high enough to destroy businesses the same way a speeding or parking ticket shouldn't bankrupt people.

> The moment people fail to differentiate between revenue and profit, one can safely ignore the rest of the article. I assumed from your earlier comment you had a problem with the article using revenue.

Base the fine on revenue, measure the time needed to pay the fine in profits or cash flow. That would show some basic financial and accounting literacy, the bare minimum I ask for if you want me ro take an article about financials seriously.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#94

Post by chiefalchemist »

hef19898 wrote: post #53
kmlx wrote: post #38

from the article: > As of seven days and three hours into 2024, they had already earned enough revenue to pay it all off. revenue is not the same as profit. this is basic stuff. from the same article: > Still, revenue is a more accurate depiction of a company’s size and profitability. it seems like this is rookie hour. then we look at the author's previous posts: https://proton.me/blog/big-tech-ipef With new trade de…

The moment people fail to differentiate between revenue and profit, one can safely ignore the rest of the article.

Agree. It's safe to ignore such articles. On the other hand, we'd do ourselves a disservice if we ignored: a fine is not a fine if it doesn't cause pain.

As it is, these relatively small fines to large companies are simply the cost of doing business. The behaviour does not change.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#95

Post by hef19898 »

Ekaros wrote: post #91
hef19898 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I hold, I am super rich you know, 10% of Airbus. Now Airbus is fined billions by authorities for violating export control laws, engaged in bribery and other stuff. Some that was done by local sales entities. How exactly can I, even as one of the biggest shareholders, influence those operational daily decisions? Also, you are aware of the idea of having limited liability companies?

Yes, your liability would be limited to whatever is the value of that 10%. Own a company that does bad enough thing, lose the whole holding in the company. You could participate in electing a board. That elects CEO and other C-level that spend all their waking hours ensuring that no one in company breaks rules. I think that is absolutely reasonable thing to ask, specially with pay they are getting.

Wow, that is a very interesting take on how limited liability and public companies work...

One corner stone of free societies is private ownership of enterprises. And that comes with the idea of shielding investors and owners from certain decisions of the comoany, which is a legal person apart from the legal person of the investor / owner...

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#97

Post by Alpha3031 »

vnjxk wrote: post #6
hliyan wrote: post #2

Either the fines need to be high enough until there is a material impact to shareholders, or natural persons who make decisions within the corporation needs to be held accountable (not just the legal person), OR, we need to fundamentally rethink what a corporation's charter must necessarily include (in addition to shareholder returns).

Could you imagine adding additional fine to shareholders? Like a reverse dividend? I wonder what disasters or blesses this will cause

Shareholders of large public companies have limited ability to challenge the actions of directors, as proxy fights are in a majority of cases unsuccessful and shareholder lawsuits are also difficult as courts such as the Delaware Chancery are generally highly deferential applying the business judgement rule. For optimal effect, if non-corporate liability desired, suggest liability attach to directors and officers first instead.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#98

Post by bitshiftfaced »

arghwhat wrote: post #57
bitshiftfaced wrote: post #23

Shareholders care more about net profit than revenue. Using revenue makes the number more clickbaity. Also, you claim this isn't a deterrent, but you don't explain why . How do we know that tech companies weren't just well-behaved last year? Or, should one week's revenue never ever be able to pay off a company's past year's fines, and we should always assume tech companies are more evil than that?

Profit is an easier number to manipulate than revenue through expenses and liability. E.g., by increasing expenses to executive salaries and by investing huge sums in growth projects or new strategies. For large companies, particularly those where investors prioritize growth, cash flow is often more interesting than profit.

Oh I agree that if you're going to fee based on something, revenue is better than profit. My post wasn't trying to say otherwise. It's just that I don't believe it makes sense to gauge how fast companies pay off the fee in terms of revenue, such as was done in the article.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#99

Post by HumblyTossed »

kmlx wrote: post #38

from the article: > As of seven days and three hours into 2024, they had already earned enough revenue to pay it all off. revenue is not the same as profit. this is basic stuff. from the same article: > Still, revenue is a more accurate depiction of a company’s size and profitability. it seems like this is rookie hour. then we look at the author's previous posts: https://proton.me/blog/big-tech-ipef With new trade de…

> > As of seven days and three hours into 2024, they had already earned enough revenue to pay it all off.

> revenue is not the same as profit. this is basic stuff.

And all of "Big Tech" isn't going to run and pay off their 2023 fines this week either.

It's an illustration. This is basic stuff.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#100

Post by Ekaros »

hef19898 wrote: post #95
Ekaros wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, your liability would be limited to whatever is the value of that 10%. Own a company that does bad enough thing, lose the whole holding in the company. You could participate in electing a board. That elects CEO and other C-level that spend all their waking hours ensuring that no one in company breaks rules. I think that is absolutely reasonable thing to ask, specially with pay they are getting.

Wow, that is a very interesting take on how limited liability and public companies work... One corner stone of free societies is private ownership of enterprises. And that comes with the idea of shielding investors and owners from certain decisions of the comoany, which is a legal person apart from the legal person of the investor / owner...

Let's say company has stock price of 100. Then it kills million people. Court decides to set fine of 99%. Now the stock price stays the same, but next time holder of share sells it 99% of price goes as fine to society.

Their liability is limited to that 100. Just that next time they transact on the share they entirely justly lose most of it. As they did horrific job in controlling their property.

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