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Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

theguardian.com

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Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#31

Post by charlieyu1 »

starbugs wrote: post #4
robertlagrant wrote: post #2

The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know if he'll ever make the money back, and the third didn't like it.

This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.

Why is it so expensive to set up? Air conditioning seems to be everywhere in Asia and insulation is basically nonexistent

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#32

Post by infecto »

hef19898 wrote: post #19
infecto wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP did a bad job but here are my guesses. Most traditional UK homes do not have central air, they use boiler/radiator systems for the winter. Retrofitting these homes do have central air with a heat pump probably does not make sense. I don't think the product the OP linked was a very good example either. It's just an electric boiler that somehow stores offpeak energy to be used during the day. Don't know a lot ab…

Heat pumps work perfectly fine with radiator systems.

They do indeed, same with heat pump style water heaters used in America.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#33

Post by HPsquared »

infecto wrote: post #15
Faaak wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK Why ? UK is well above freezing (and even them, heat pumps _work_ below freezing, even with a COP > 1). So I'm curious about your assumption

The OP did a bad job but here are my guesses. Most traditional UK homes do not have central air, they use boiler/radiator systems for the winter. Retrofitting these homes do have central air with a heat pump probably does not make sense. I don't think the product the OP linked was a very good example either. It's just an electric boiler that somehow stores offpeak energy to be used during the day. Don't know a lot ab…

Thermal storage bricks are a lot cheaper than batteries and chargers. The bad part is that it's resistance heating, which throws away a lot of exergy.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#34

Post by soco »

theGnuMe wrote: post #21
plexman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+ it adds to the cost of new developments in the countries where its mandatory a high efficiency rating, like Ireland BER https://www.seai.ie/home-energy/building-energy-rating-ber/ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1ca53-new-energy-efficienc... By the way there's talk from some gov officials to forbid selling old houses if the BER rating is too low. You will need to spend thousands to get it to some better rating.

Listed houses should get an exemption to install double glazed windows and other insulation upgrades. Or they should get a discount on energy costs.

Or get subventions for insulation upgrades?

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#35

Post by krona »

Faaak wrote: post #10
krona wrote: post #5

I thought this was a new kind of air-source heat pump without all the problems of existing ones, but no, it's just a heat pump. Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK, and the government is bribing people to install them. For what it's worth, I think systems like https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb will eventually replace gas in the UK, not ASHPs. Similar technology is being trialled at some army barrac…

> Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK Why ? UK is well above freezing (and even them, heat pumps _work_ below freezing, even with a COP > 1). So I'm curious about your assumption

Most boilers sit in peoples homes. An ASHP sits outside and you will need at least 5sq meters of space with excellent ventilation. That excludes many people (including me).

But even then during winter the average ASHP makes too much noise. Planning regulations are starting to recognise the fact that they can be a nuisance in semi-rural areas, and your neighbours will hate you.

This ignores all the problems around having to retro-fit larger radiators in older homes due to lower flow temperatures.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#36

Post by starbugs »

soco wrote: post #22
starbugs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.

We did, or rather received such calculations from the providers. Today and here, depending when you retire and what your plans after that are, you might think twice about getting a geothermal one. The air-water would fit as the 1:1 replacement for the oil heating we have, with the promise of barely breaking even. NB: when you replace/upgrade an existing pump, some costs won't come again.

> We did, or rather received such calculations from the providers.

Well, the calculations from the providers are highly likely to be "optimized". I would suggest the first point one might check is if the given COP is realistic. Usually it isn't.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#37

Post by [deleted] »

Gare wrote: post #26
krona wrote: post #5

I thought this was a new kind of air-source heat pump without all the problems of existing ones, but no, it's just a heat pump. Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK, and the government is bribing people to install them. For what it's worth, I think systems like https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb will eventually replace gas in the UK, not ASHPs. Similar technology is being trialled at some army barrac…

Isn't ZEB just an evolution of storage heater? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater They are several times less efficient than heat pumps.

[deleted]

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#38

Post by infecto »

jwestbury wrote: post #16
eutectic wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But demand is lower in the summer, so this shouldn't effect renewable energy requirements.

This is regionally specific. The US south, for instance, sees higher usage in summer due to air conditioning demand.

The whole premise for the original parent comment was talking about Northern regions. So yes, this whole thread is regionally specific.

Talking about the south is silly because in most of the southern US it is near unlivable with humidity to go without A/C.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#39

Post by [deleted] »

soco wrote: post #30
jltsiren wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The climate in the UK may be too warm to see the real benefits. Heat pumps have been popular in the Finland for 15+ years. The calculations vary from situation to situation, but the rule of thumb is that the initial investment pays itself back in ~5 years, and you have to replace the heat pump after ~15 years.

5 years look for me highly unexpected. Can you please detail the pump type and whether you get subventions for it?

[deleted]

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#40

Post by infecto »

HPsquared wrote: post #33
infecto wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP did a bad job but here are my guesses. Most traditional UK homes do not have central air, they use boiler/radiator systems for the winter. Retrofitting these homes do have central air with a heat pump probably does not make sense. I don't think the product the OP linked was a very good example either. It's just an electric boiler that somehow stores offpeak energy to be used during the day. Don't know a lot ab…

Thermal storage bricks are a lot cheaper than batteries and chargers. The bad part is that it's resistance heating, which throws away a lot of exergy.

Agreed! I just said battery to cover any type of energy storage mechanism.
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