Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 113 posts

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#21

Post by theGnuMe »

plexman wrote: post #8
starbugs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.

+ it adds to the cost of new developments in the countries where its mandatory a high efficiency rating, like Ireland BER https://www.seai.ie/home-energy/building-energy-rating-ber/ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1ca53-new-energy-efficienc... By the way there's talk from some gov officials to forbid selling old houses if the BER rating is too low. You will need to spend thousands to get it to some better rating.

Listed houses should get an exemption to install double glazed windows and other insulation upgrades. Or they should get a discount on energy costs.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#22

Post by soco »

starbugs wrote: post #4
robertlagrant wrote: post #2

The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know if he'll ever make the money back, and the third didn't like it.

This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.

We did, or rather received such calculations from the providers. Today and here, depending when you retire and what your plans after that are, you might think twice about getting a geothermal one. The air-water would fit as the 1:1 replacement for the oil heating we have, with the promise of barely breaking even. NB: when you replace/upgrade an existing pump, some costs won't come again.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#23

Post by HPsquared »

starbugs wrote: post #4
robertlagrant wrote: post #2

The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know if he'll ever make the money back, and the third didn't like it.

This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.

Wouldn't it take longer to pay off on a well-insulated home? That's the sort of home that doesn't use much gas to begin with.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#24

Post by walthamstow »

l3x wrote: post #14
Faaak wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK Why ? UK is well above freezing (and even them, heat pumps _work_ below freezing, even with a COP > 1). So I'm curious about your assumption

I expect it's more to do with how poorly insulated most UK homes are

Insulation and having outdoor space to put the thing without sacrificing half your garden.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#25

Post by jsiepkes »

krona wrote: post #5

I thought this was a new kind of air-source heat pump without all the problems of existing ones, but no, it's just a heat pump. Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK, and the government is bribing people to install them. For what it's worth, I think systems like https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb will eventually replace gas in the UK, not ASHPs. Similar technology is being trialled at some army barrac…

An electric boiler is never going to deliver more energy then the energy you put in to it (in the form of electricity). A heath pump can because it extracts heath from the air (or better said the water in the air).

Now if this were in France with a modern grid and nuclear power it might stand a chance. But the UK with it's aging grid and aging power plants? I doubt it.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#26

Post by Gare »

krona wrote: post #5

I thought this was a new kind of air-source heat pump without all the problems of existing ones, but no, it's just a heat pump. Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK, and the government is bribing people to install them. For what it's worth, I think systems like https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb will eventually replace gas in the UK, not ASHPs. Similar technology is being trialled at some army barrac…

Isn't ZEB just an evolution of storage heater? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater

They are several times less efficient than heat pumps.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#27

Post by ricardobayes »

krona wrote: post #5

I thought this was a new kind of air-source heat pump without all the problems of existing ones, but no, it's just a heat pump. Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK, and the government is bribing people to install them. For what it's worth, I think systems like https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb will eventually replace gas in the UK, not ASHPs. Similar technology is being trialled at some army barrac…

We need the "hybrid car" of boilers right now I think.

Jumping from gas to ASHP is too big a hurdle for most as it involves many changes (upgrades in electricity, insulation systems, radiator upgrades and/or redoing the floor with underfloor heating).

I think an immediate, gradual, cheaper solution would be boilers being run on biofuel.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#28

Post by garblegarble »

Faaak wrote: post #10
krona wrote: post #5

I thought this was a new kind of air-source heat pump without all the problems of existing ones, but no, it's just a heat pump. Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK, and the government is bribing people to install them. For what it's worth, I think systems like https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb will eventually replace gas in the UK, not ASHPs. Similar technology is being trialled at some army barrac…

> Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK Why ? UK is well above freezing (and even them, heat pumps _work_ below freezing, even with a COP > 1). So I'm curious about your assumption

My understanding (and I'd love to be wrong here because it annoys me that I can't take advantage of high efficiency systems) is that:

1. Existing UK homes use radiators that would need to be replaced with larger radiators with an air-to-water heat pump, due to the water not being as hot as a traditional radiator system. Some of this is cost (replacing radiators), some of this is simply not having the space - many radiators are installed below windows so there isn't much scope to increase their size

2. Replacing radiators with an air-to-air system in each room is too expensive (especially since older homes often use solid brick/concrete for internal walls), as well as a large number of terraced houses with limited space for external piping/units.

3. Our mild climate (as well as housing stock age -- and, I'm betting, good historical access to local fossil fuels) means UK homes are very poorly insulated, and with our humid climate can have humidity + mould issues if retrofitted with insulation that reduces drafts.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#29

Post by theGnuMe »

krona wrote: post #5

I thought this was a new kind of air-source heat pump without all the problems of existing ones, but no, it's just a heat pump. Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK, and the government is bribing people to install them. For what it's worth, I think systems like https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb will eventually replace gas in the UK, not ASHPs. Similar technology is being trialled at some army barrac…

Read the first line of the article, it specifically references an air source heat pump.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#30

Post by soco »

jltsiren wrote: post #20
starbugs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.

The climate in the UK may be too warm to see the real benefits. Heat pumps have been popular in the Finland for 15+ years. The calculations vary from situation to situation, but the rule of thumb is that the initial investment pays itself back in ~5 years, and you have to replace the heat pump after ~15 years.

5 years look for me highly unexpected. Can you please detail the pump type and whether you get subventions for it?
Post reply on HN