IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system • Hacker News Board

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#281

Post by remarkEon » Sun, Jan 07, 2024, 6:43 AM UTC

roddds wrote: post #245

remarkEon wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's really a distraction. It seems illogical for the government to not have a free, easy way for the taxpayer to remit their taxes to the government (or submit the paperwork that should generate a return from that government). But at the same time I think it's fine to be skeptical that you should trust the government to be honest in showing you what amount of taxes you actually owe given how complicate…

I'm sorry if this is stupid - I'm not American and this is entire conversation about taxes here is nuts, but: >Is the free-filing system designed to maximize your return? Why does it need to? I mean, why do you need a tax return, if your taxes would be lower if you just got charged the right amount in the first place? And then isn't the role of society to audit their own taxes, and at the same time support candidates…

To simplify what is an absurdly complicated topic, the US Tax Code gives you a lot of "breaks" for certain things. For a lot of those things, the government won't know they happened unless you tell them (and you prove it). In most cases (i.e. for regular salaried or hourly employees) your taxes are automatically deducted, and then at the beginning of the new year you basically give the government a list of things that happened that could/would/should reduce your taxable income, which results in you getting money back from the government (sometimes).

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#282

Post by PeterStuer » Sun, Jan 07, 2024, 6:49 AM UTC

neilkk wrote: post #172

_ihaque wrote: post #98

For anyone interested in why the system looks the way it does, I recommend patio11's insightful recent blog post, which is nominally about payroll systems but ends up discussing the history of taxation in the US because that's the origination of many of these systems: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/payroll-providers-pow... A relevant quotation for much of the discussion here: > And, relevant to the question o…

patio11 has a huge and well known bias here, which is that he wants to claim, not necessarily with evidence, that all inefficiency is caused by governments and not by the private sector. A comparison of tax filing in the United States with other countries, including those where governments are much bigger and more interventionist, leads to a different conclusion.

Having worked in IT with both the public and the private sector, my opinion is there is no difference in 'efficency' between them at all.

Efficiency seems inversely correlated with the size of the organization. Public sector usually has large orgs, but they are not run less efficient than equivalently sized enterprises.

You might jump to the conclusion that smaller entities would be the efficency solution, and even observe how this allows sometimes for a smaller entity to outcompete a big enterprise. However, if you approach it from a more systemic analytical point of view you have to take into account that surrounding the 'small' efficient business, there are dozens if not hundreds of unsuccessful competing small entities vying for the same niche. Taken together and purely looking at aggregate efficiency, this collection of competing businesses is even less efficient. The strenght of an openly darwinian struggle lies in innovation and adaptation, not in aggregate resource waste reduction.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#283

Post by Anon4Now » Sun, Jan 07, 2024, 6:49 AM UTC

mminer237 wrote: post #251

LelouBil wrote: post #230

Is there any documentation on how an average person living in the US files their taxes ? Are you forced to use third party services ? How exactly is it hard to do your taxes on your own ?

There are PDFs you can fill out yourself and either paper or e-file, but very, very do it. It's not really hard for most people. Probably 40% of people can put their wages in box 1 and be done. But most people's eyes would glaze over at seeing a 1040. Every February everybody who paid you or got paid tax-deductibly mails you a form with the finals amounts for last year. On the back are instructions for where it goes…

> Most complications arise either from: > You run your own business ...

Adding to this, even if you have a small side hustle with low overhead (no employees, few expenses, etc.), the labyrinthine process of filling out all the additional forms is just plain ridiculous.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#284

Post by turquoisevar » Sun, Jan 07, 2024, 6:55 AM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #279

MobiusHorizons wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you consider it an incentive problem for cloud providers to send you a bill instead of asking you to submit what you believe you should owe? We have societally solved these problems my making them auditable. People don’t necessarily trust the bill, and have means of disputing it. If you think the government’s tool is overcharging, you are welcome to file your own taxes and deal with the possibility of getting audi…

Wait, do people not keep track of their own usage to compare it to their AWS bill? I just use free tiers for personal projects, but I guess I assumed that there would be some log reviews at some point if you were using it for running an actual business. Anyway, I guess that means my answer is "yes". >If you think the government’s tool is overcharging, you are welcome to file your own taxes and deal with the possibili…

> "Pay what we say you owe or we'll nuke your finances with an audit". Yes this is exactly my problem.

You might be misunderstanding in what an audit entails.

There’s no direct “nuking” of finances due to an audit.

In the vast majority of cases an audit is nothing more than “you claimed this on your return, can you please provide the documentation that supports it?”

More specifically, I believe most audits are about claiming child tax credit and them wanting documentation to support the claim.

If your finances get nuked that means you lied on your return, with very few exceptions.

Main exception that comes to mind is claiming expenses that are up for debate.

Also circling back to your earlier comment. Yes the tax code is needlessly complicated, Intuit et al. are the ones who caused that and are actively lobbying against simplifying it because their paid services would become obsolete if the tax code was nice and simple.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#285

Post by ghaff » Sun, Jan 07, 2024, 7:05 AM UTC

wolfgang42 wrote: post #222

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's moronic that they got rid of that. I would say (as someone whose taxes will never take less than several hours) that those 30 minutes are about 28 minutes too many.

My understanding is that they replaced the 1040/1040EZ split with a simplified Form 1040+Schedules 1/2/3, so instead of getting a short form (which only applied to a limited set of situations) or a long form, you always get a shorter one, plus only the addenda needed for your situation.

I assume one issue was that you could start filling out an EZ only to discover that there was something requiring you to start over with a 1040.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

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Post by ksenzee » Sun, Jan 07, 2024, 7:10 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #277

ksenzee wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't look to me (from 20 miles away) as if Seattle's government is notably efficient or effective, and I'd even say one-party rule is partly to blame: opposition parties serve a useful purpose. But I don't think the standard Republican sneer of "look what a crappy job the Democrats do of running the big cities" makes any sense, either. The things Republicans are pointing at as symptoms of bad Democratic governm…

[flagged]

This is where it gets subjective again and I bow out, because the Seattleites I know would disagree with you (except about the cops, which is the same problem nationwide).

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#287

Post by joshuamorton » Sun, Jan 07, 2024, 7:20 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #254

ksenzee wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's this idea that west coast cities are shitholes, and honestly it's BS. I live in the Seattle suburbs and I'm downtown regularly, and the only obvious problem is the public disorder visited on us all by Martin v. Boise. It's pretty clear from housing prices that wealthy people are still happy living in Seattle: the market is speaking loudly. Don't get me wrong—I live in the suburbs for a reason, you couldn't pa…

I agree that in many cases there isn't any substance behind the talk. Yet the single largest state-to-state flow of people is from California to Texas, not the other way around; surely there's something objective that is driving that. And, given the time and effort required for such a move, it's not something most people would do on a whim without doing at least some research.

"why is the largest single state transfer from the largest state by population to the second largest state by population" is perhaps not that surprising a result.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#288

Post by ksenzee » Sun, Jan 07, 2024, 7:23 AM UTC

jandrewrogers wrote: post #274

ksenzee wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's this idea that west coast cities are shitholes, and honestly it's BS. I live in the Seattle suburbs and I'm downtown regularly, and the only obvious problem is the public disorder visited on us all by Martin v. Boise. It's pretty clear from housing prices that wealthy people are still happy living in Seattle: the market is speaking loudly. Don't get me wrong—I live in the suburbs for a reason, you couldn't pa…

I think there is a correct perception that many west coast cities are shitholes relative to what their per capita tax expenditures buys in most other cities . It is an argument about relative ROI, not absolute quality of life. If I spend $150k on a car, I don’t expect a used Toyota Corolla. Cities like Seattle generate inexplicably little public value for the extremely high per capita spending. It should be much nice…

I agree with almost everything here, but this isn't what I'm referring to. What I hear ad nauseam is not that SEA/PDX/SFO are used Corollas but that they're Pintos with fire coming out the tail end. If what you're hearing from Republicans is "Seattle is an ok city but should have much lower taxes for the services they get" then I want to know what media you consume, so I can recommend it to my right-wing acquaintances.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#289

Post by phpisthebest » Sun, Jan 07, 2024, 7:41 AM UTC

mrmanner wrote: post #196

Dalewyn wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Japan’s system is very efficient, Yes, because there is only one tax authority (国税庁, Kokuzeichou, National Tax Agency). Here in the US, we have more than one tax authority: We have the IRS, which is the federal tax authority. Each state then has their own tax authority. Each county then has their own tax authority. Each city then might have their own tax authority. And we must submit filings and returns with and pay…

> Paying taxes in the US is complicated because everyone wants their taxes Everyone wants their taxes and refuses to cooperate. Most countries have some kind of local or regional taxes, and the single tax authority is responsible for collecting and distributing them all. I get that the federal level in the US is a bit special (EU for example doesn’t tax citizens directly, instead the member states pay fees from their…

>>I get that the federal level in the US is a bit special (EU for example doesn’t tax citizens directly, instead the member states pay fees from their tax revenue).

the US Federal government was not suppose to tax citizens directly either, thanks to the 16th Amendment that was passed under the lie that it would only ever be a "Tax on the rich" of 3% and only apply to 1% of the people, now the federal government takes nearly 25% of all citizens incomes,, and uses that money to bribe people for votes and extort states for policies they desire...

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#290

Post by Izkata » Sun, Jan 07, 2024, 7:53 AM UTC

glasshug wrote: post #71

freedomben wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who don't know, of those 12 states, only 4 actually have income taxes. The other 8 do not. This whole system stinks. The overly complicated tax code, the sleazy corporations making tons of money on it, the entrenched politicians and bureacrats who make a living on it, etc.

The program is for federal tax filing, not state tax. I think you may be misreading this line: > Most of those states don’t tax income at the state level, but the four that do...will guide participants to a state-supported tool that they can use to submit their state returns. Which means it's _more_ incomplete in states with income tax (federal return through IRS pilot, state return through a state system) than in st…

Or put another way, it's the same as the current system. I already have to fill out federal and state in different places.