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FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

cnbc.com

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Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#221

Post by _cenw »

codeflo wrote: post #208
_cenw wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing made the 737 NG until 2019. It also allegedly had issues with the contractor Ducommun making the airframe, including "hammering alignment holes into place". But it wasn't nearly as problematic of a plane. The Max is a desperate attempt to compete with the A320 neo ("new engine option"). It is the aviation efficiency gain equivalent of a die shrink, except these engines get bigger, and while Airbus had space to…

> pilots not having to do an entirely new type certificate And consequently, their intention seems to be to bend the rules about the validity of the existing certifications to the max (no pun intended). At what point can an agency rule that Boeing no longer follows the spirit of the pilot certification rules?

MCAS absolutely should have triggered a recertification. It's essentially meant to make the Max feel like the NG by slightly pulling down to compensate for the angled engines. And we all know how that ended when the plane's angle of attack sensor failed, the backup wasn't being checked, and the pilots didn't know their plane suddenly had an extra system pulling on the trim. Even with the autopilot off. This is normal and expected on Airbus craft and later Boeing planes like the Dreamliner, but not the 737.

Oh, and the indicator for your AOA sensors disagreeing? Used to be a physical part of the cockpit, and was moved to an optional addon in the Max. But Boeing then forgot to put the indicator in the glass cockpit. Presumably because their development aircraft all had the option.

None of the accident airlines had the option.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#222

Post by wredue »

throw0101d wrote: post #29

Good book describing the cultural change from engineering-focus to business-focus of Boeing: * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55994102-flying-blind * https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/646497/flying-blind...

Considering the consistent gross mismanagement of Boeing, who receive free bailouts just for being Boeing

Well, I was going to say that calling them “business oriented” is laughable, but I guess that running a business in to the ground then laughing all the way to the bail out bank is just standard operating procedure now around the world.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#223

Post by mlyle »

whycome wrote: post #128
Xorlev wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for that? I'm not denying it, just curious to read more.

cursory search: > Preliminary information about the accident remains scarce, though two people familiar with the aircraft tell The Air Current that the aircraft in question, N704AL, had presented spurious indications of pressurization issues during two instances on January 4. The first intermittent warning light appeared during taxi-in following a previous flight, which prompted the airline to remove the aircraft fro…

Well, that's an interesting thing. During taxi-in, the cabin altitude should be the ground altitude; outflow valves open at touchdown.

Hard to understand how an an incipient failure could manifest then (e.g. from increased leakage).

Of course, there's warning lights for excessive cabin pressure, etc, too... which would point to a different theory of the problem than a structural manufacturing problem.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#224

Post by mastax »

Zigurd wrote: post #124

How even does a "plug" door blow out like that? That's a seemingly very robust design where cabin pressure holds the door in place passively, in addition to the latches holding it in place.

In /r/Aviation they were talking like it gets installed from the outside.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#225

Post by eunos »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #104
throw0101d wrote: post #29

Good book describing the cultural change from engineering-focus to business-focus of Boeing: * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55994102-flying-blind * https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/646497/flying-blind...

Has there been any push to break up Boeing?

The moment Boeing breakup discourse entering public discourse all of their lobbyists retinue will shout "Airbus, COMAC, Great Power Competition"

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#226

Post by piva00 »

Brybry wrote: post #198
hnarn wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Separating “manufacturing mistakes” only makes sense if someone else is responsible for manufacturing. As far as I know, Boeing is responsible for both the design and the manufacturing of these aircraft so the difference is purely informational, but in terms of criticizing Boeing mostly irrelevant.

Spirit AeroSystems makes the fuselage for the 737 Max. [1][2] It's even in the article: "Spirit AeroSystems, which makes the fuselages for the planes, referred CNBC to Boeing when asked about the incident" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_AeroSystems [2] https://www.spiritaero.com/

Boeing decided to outsource to Spirit, Boeing is responsible to attest the quality of what Spirit is delivering for a Boeing product.

If Samsung/Apple would outsource their batteries to Megabattery Company LLC and those batteries started to randomly explode we would all be blaming Samsung/Apple for not doing proper QC. I hope we all hold Boeing to a much higher level of scrutiny than cellphone manufacturers.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#227

Post by einpoklum »

akira2501 wrote: post #100
throw0101d wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes: the running joke is/was that McD bought Boeing with Boeing's money. * https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing... * https://archive.is/q5pQV * https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merg... * https://simpleflying.com/mcdonnel-douglas-boeing-merger/ B was pressured to buy McD for 'national security' reasons. What would have been a better idea would have been, instead of doing…

> B was pressured to buy McD for 'national security' reasons. Creating monopolies and reducing suppliers actually harms "national security." Our braindead managerial class in action.

It may potentially harm the security of the nation's subject, but it does not harm the interests of the ruling elites - and that's the real "national security" in practice.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#228

Post by nerdjon »

ugiox wrote: post #151

How to avoid the 737 Max? Fly only airlines that don’t have it. Luckily there are still a few around in Europe. Since the two fatal crashes I have avoided doing flights with 737s.

I have made the decision that unless I absolutely can’t avoid it I am avoiding Boeing for the near future entirely.

But a 737 max is full no go for me no matter what the situation is. I will do multiple stops before stepping foot on one.

Personally I fly exclusively JetBlue in the US and they use Airbus almost exclusively. They have a few of whatever that other brand is. No Boeing.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#230

Post by crisdux »

jdksmdbtbdnmsm wrote: post #201
intunderflow wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that when they merged with McDonnell Douglas their new (McDonnell) management pushed out the good engineering culture and dropped their quality standards in a chase for more profit, leading to engineering experiencing the dead sea effect.

in other words: capitalism, the system we've designed our whole society around

No, this isn't a well-functioning capitalist system. Competition is a core principle of capitalism. What occurred in the aerospace industry represents a government-sanctioned monopoly.
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