Age verification is incompatible with the internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#101

Post by isthatafact » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 1:29 PM UTC

MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #95

It is possible to cryptographically attest to attributes like age without revealing identity. I worked on a privacy preserving system that did this among other things. Third parties who received an attestation of some property could verify it. To be fully private, a bit more is required. Crucially, each time an attestation is provided it is made unlinkable to previous times it may have been provided. So the third par…

I do not expect that I could ever trust the 3rd party. And any on-device "private solution" seems unlikely to be implemented in a provably secure and safe way.

Besides that, why is any of that complicated stuff even needed? I know my age, and I am able to verify my age without involving any 3rd party, software, AI etc. If someone else wants to lie about their age, I am not convinced that I should need to jump through hoops and give away my own privacy as part of any of the flawed schemes supposedly intended to prevent that, as some governments are trying to push.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#102

Post by fdupress » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 1:33 PM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #82

JohnMakin wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very basic iphone setting that restricts adult content from a huge list of sites plus any other sites you want to add to it. This tech has been around for decades.

That's great, but my kids have source code access on their devices.

I am slightly confused by this comment in the context of the thread.

Because you choose to give your children freedom to operate their device however they see fit, you are in support of legislation that restricts what they can use their device to access on the internet?

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#103

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 1:39 PM UTC

NoZebra120vClip wrote: post #51

JohnMakin wrote: post #4

Parents and caretakers have the ability to restrict children’s content on any device a child has access to. The burden should be on them to ensure their child is not consuming porn. It shouldn’t be everyone else’s problem that people are unwilling to parent their children.

Parents can achieve this without resorting to an atmosphere of paranoia and control. If parents foster transparency, trust, and open communication with their children, where no secrets are kept and children are not afraid to discuss difficult subjects with parents, then a lot of problems are already solved, or nipped in the bud. Minor children really shouldn't have an expectation of privacy while they're out on the b…

I think that it's worth keeping in mind that that isn't always possible. For example, with foster children it is not unlikely that experience with previous parents have already given a child baggage that will make that strategy much less successful.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#104

Post by t0bia_s » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 1:39 PM UTC

throwuwu wrote: post #98

t0bia_s wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adults ruin their lives by smoking tobacco, drinking alcohol... Also they ruin relationships by consuming porn. Maybe we should ban it completely?

I hope you like organized crime

How is that related?

It was sarcasm. Pointing extreme of previous sentence.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#105

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 1:42 PM UTC

JohnMakin wrote: post #4

Parents and caretakers have the ability to restrict children’s content on any device a child has access to. The burden should be on them to ensure their child is not consuming porn. It shouldn’t be everyone else’s problem that people are unwilling to parent their children.

I think that there is probably a middle ground. Certainly there is a significant responsibility for parents to monitor their children's media consumption and teach them healthy practices. However, it is also not reasonable to expect that they will be able to do so all of the time or that they may not need assistance to do so.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#106

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 1:49 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #3

There are valid complaints to the idea being challenged, but it absolutely can be done technically and through legislation enforcing technical controls. Sophisticated users will use VPNs if they want to evade geoblocks, your average person won't (and any business that attempts to help them will be met with a legal hammer), and digital IDs are both reasonable and feasible to deploy at nation scale. Should it be used t…

In the current US I don't think it's reasonable to believe that we can trust that something like digital IDs would not be abused. That does not necessarily mean that there are not other locations or times where that trust might be warranted.

Specifically, it's likely that police and/or national security would use them in ways that would result in false arrests and/or chilling online behavior. It is also becoming increasingly likely that Christian Nationalists would use them to censor speech that they don't like and/or to persecute people that they disagree with.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#107

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 1:54 PM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #61

o11c wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, but unironically. ... though it probably shouldn't use the same age cutoff as beer. 18 or even 15 would be better. The downside is that - even with mild enforcement - fast food would get even more expensive for people who buy the cheap items which are currently subsidized by drinks.

Where does it stop next? Government telling us that we can't have our small piece of chocolate until we eat all our veggies and Mediterranean menu diet guide?

There's lots of places that it could stop:

The government ensures that realistic healthy options are available but doesn't force people to select them.

The government applies a minimal tax to the most obviously unhealthy options but doesn't otherwise restrict anything.

The government applies regulations before 18 years old but not afterwards.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#108

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 2:04 PM UTC

huytersd wrote: post #44

TobyTheDog123 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like a lot of the comments here are said ironically but would actually be wonderful for much of society. Very tired of the libertarian arguments when they obviously don't work.

Libertarianism doesn’t work as much as communism doesn’t work.

From history, we mainly know that nation scale communism doesn't work when it is run by a totalitarian government and/or is undermined by the embargos or the CIA. We don't have much data on democratic communism that is reasonably free from outside interference.

On the other hand, we know that communism works on the small scale due to the success of various traditional communities and non-profits.

Depending on the specific system being discussed, there's also significant evidence that "more moderate" systems related to communism (e.g. various forms of socialism) work. Part of the problem that I've had in trying to interact with libertarian ideas is that they tend to be purist. In particular, when confronted with criticisms they tend to claim that under a complete libertarian system they wouldn't occur. However, that precludes the ability to consider whether an incomplete libertarian system might have merit.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#109

Post by acd » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 2:12 PM UTC

The issue I have with age verification and End user agreements is the following.

There is no legal binding to who signed the Eula in normal end user accept. This differs from a paper contract where the signature is person identifiable.

Your cats paw could have clicked on the Eula accept :). Who is liable then the cat?

I think that if Eulas was taken to highest court of law they may not hold through screening.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#110

Post by pavel_lishin » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 3:13 PM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #67

pavel_lishin wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the salesperson (or web store) is required to ask if the device is for an underage child Is there a penalty if they don't? Is there a penalty if an adult lies? Is there a penalty if an underage person pretends to be an adult?

Why is it any different than alcohol? Typically the penalty is banning sales at that store.

Maybe it wouldn't be, but if you're going to declare that "something is simple" and provide a solution that's based on rules, you need to include the penalty for breaking those rules.