Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US • Hacker News Board

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#751

Post by lagadu » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 3:56 PM UTC

jansan wrote: post #286

steelframe wrote: post #228

I've owned several EVs over the past 10 years, and I've settled on a so-called "hybrid garage." That is, one EV and one PHEV. I've owned two luxury EV brands priced over $80k, and yet my favorite EV is still my first one, a 2013 LEAF now worth less than $5k. The cheap and tiny EV is a no-fuss/no-worry car that zips me around town for my daily driving. It's small and nimble, and I don't really care about what happens…

You sound like a version of me with deeper pockets. We have a Volkswagen eUp! as an EV, which is a lot of fun to drive and does all the inner city commute. Then I have a station wagon that I bought for 15000€ in almost new condition, which is used for all longer trips or cases when stuff needs to be transported. Sometimes I drive it on short trips only to not let it sit around for longer than two weeks. I would go fo…

Going completely off-topic here but I have to ask: why spend that much for a Carrera T in a world the Cayman GTS 4.0 exists and is superior in virtually everything that matters for a sports car for significantly less?

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#752

Post by cryptonector » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 3:56 PM UTC

vertnerd wrote: post #554

1. Range. But this speaks to the failure of the industry to provide charging infrastructure. This was one big thing that Tesla got right. 2. Price. An EV is inherently simpler to build and should cost less. Indeed, early EV offerings were almost affordable, if not for the high cost of the batteries. Now that batteries are less expensive, the automakers are pushing large, expensive cars (because they think they can se…

Who could want a pickup besides people who need a pickup?

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#753

Post by recursive » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 3:57 PM UTC

wmeredith wrote: post #659

talldatethrow wrote: post #90

I think EVs give me LESS range anxiety overall. In my gas car days, atleast once a month I was late for work or an event AND low on gas. Having to remember and think about getting gas was constantly on my mind because I have a pretty long commute. With an electric car, I start every day, always, with a full tank. No matter how late I'm running, I know there won't be a surprise that I need gas in addition to being lat…

Yeah, but if you're low and have to stop for gas, it makes you 10 minutes late. In an EV you're an hour late or have to find another ride.

If you own a garage, this is not a thing that happens. One of the best advantages of EVs that many seem not to understand.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#754

Post by rchaud » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 3:58 PM UTC

dangles wrote: post #736

Groxx wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. In America it's pretty clear that they're using the high battery cost to say "all EVs are expensive so they start at 50k and only go up" so they can crank their profit margins. Batteries are unavoidably expensive, but the only market they've been targeting are the wealthy, so they're largely burning through the enthusiasts and people on the border. Of course that market slows down, you've gotta open up the rest…

The F150 is the best selling vehicle in the US. That’s not an anomaly, the top 3 are all trucks, and 5 of the top 10 are trucks. Making a great EV truck is an enormous market opportunity.

I don't think so. ICEs are designed to be serviced at authorized centers. F150 are utilitarian vehicles that can be serviced at any shop.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#755

Post by resoluteteeth » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 3:58 PM UTC

outlace wrote: post #627

EV’s currently make the most sense for people who own a single family home or otherwise live in a community with readily available near-home chargers, where EV’s are on average more convenient than gas cars. People who rely on street parking and apartment dwellers would likely find EV’s more inconvenient than a gas car. We may be close to saturating the market for the former group. Another factor that could be at pla…

> EV’s currently make the most sense for people who own a single family home or otherwise live in a community with readily available near-home chargers, where EV’s are on average more convenient than gas cars

If they are full EVs and not PHEVs they also make the most sense for households that have multiple cars where one of the other cars is a gas car. While the vast majority of trips are short, and charger networks are improving, a lot of people in the US drive longer distances at least occasionally, so it is much easier to replace one out of two cars in a household an electric car than switch to only using electric cars.

I think that once enough people have EVs and the charger networks are better this will be less of an issue, but a lot of people seem to downplay this issue, which I think is not a good idea, because I think there's a genuine risk that there could be a chicken and egg problem to mass adoption of EVs where the market of people who are able to use an EV in 2024 could be saturated before enough people are using EVs to build out the charger network sufficiently.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#756

Post by wing-_-nuts » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 4:02 PM UTC

lucaspm98 wrote: post #692

atestu wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in that first group and I don't see how it makes the most sense. They are not more convenient. I can "charge" my gas car in 2 minutes basically anywhere in the country. I'm going on vacation next week, driving with 2 young children. It'll be about a 11 hour drive which is not crazy for a US vacation. I don't want to plan where I stop and stop for 45 minutes to fuel up with 2 toddlers in the car. And they're all m…

I've charged my EV at a public charging station less than 5 times in the past year. Instead of a 5 minute stop once a week at a gas station it's 5 seconds every time I get home to plug it in. Any trip within a 3 hour drive is possible round trip on a single charge. Any trip within a 5 hour drive is possible with no stops and destination charging, actually saving a stop. Any trip over a 5 hour drive generally takes le…

>New Tesla Model 3 prices are comparable [in cost] to entry level sedans like the Civic and Camry.

I was with you until this. This is provably false just by going to the tesla and toyota websites.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#757

Post by mushufasa » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 4:02 PM UTC

pentae wrote: post #724

atestu wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in that first group and I don't see how it makes the most sense. They are not more convenient. I can "charge" my gas car in 2 minutes basically anywhere in the country. I'm going on vacation next week, driving with 2 young children. It'll be about a 11 hour drive which is not crazy for a US vacation. I don't want to plan where I stop and stop for 45 minutes to fuel up with 2 toddlers in the car. And they're all m…

I feel the same way and after speaking with many EV people i've realised the main benefit is how cheap they are to run. This comes down to the increase in efficiency compared to an ICE - ~80% of the battery energy finds its way to the wheels on EV's, vs ~30% on an ICE. If you live somewhere where electric costs are very low then a 0 to full charge your EV costs about $10. (Someone please correct me if i'm off on this…

I think the savings argument often misses the context of discount rate: the NPV of the savings is a lot less than the total savings, especially with high interest rates.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#758

Post by recursive » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 4:02 PM UTC

deviantbit wrote: post #224

"EV should be able to do everything a gas car can" I disagree with this article. I have a 2023 Polestar that I've had for about 10 months. I will be trading it when my new gasoline Audi arrives in the next week or so. I'll never have another electric vehicle. They tell you things that are not true. The cost of ownership of electric vehicles is much higher than gasoline, especially if you travel. It takes twice as lon…

> A trip that used to take me normally 7 hours turned into 15 hours for charging and waiting.

Interesting. For another data point, it turned a "normally" 12 hour trip into about 13.5 for me. (Sacramento to Seattle)

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#759

Post by blue_cadet_3 » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 4:05 PM UTC

pentae wrote: post #724

atestu wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in that first group and I don't see how it makes the most sense. They are not more convenient. I can "charge" my gas car in 2 minutes basically anywhere in the country. I'm going on vacation next week, driving with 2 young children. It'll be about a 11 hour drive which is not crazy for a US vacation. I don't want to plan where I stop and stop for 45 minutes to fuel up with 2 toddlers in the car. And they're all m…

I feel the same way and after speaking with many EV people i've realised the main benefit is how cheap they are to run. This comes down to the increase in efficiency compared to an ICE - ~80% of the battery energy finds its way to the wheels on EV's, vs ~30% on an ICE. If you live somewhere where electric costs are very low then a 0 to full charge your EV costs about $10. (Someone please correct me if i'm off on this…

> If you live somewhere where electric costs are very low then a 0 to full charge your EV costs about $10.

I rented a Tesla Model 3 recently. From 40% to 98% cost me $7 CAD and I was able to drive from Vancouver to Tacoma, WA on a single charge and arrived with 20% battery. In the Seattle suburbs it cost a bit more, $13 USD, to go from 20% to 90% due to a supercharger station having issues so demand was higher at the next closest one.

$7 to go 175mi(283km) sold me on an EV as my next car. I never felt like I would be stranded and when the battery is conditioned for fast charging by time you pop in somewhere to use the bathroom and grab a coffee or snacks you're pretty much good to go.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#760

Post by rchaud » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 4:06 PM UTC

stetrain wrote: post #252

rdtsc wrote: post #66

> But an analysis from CarGurus found that EV prices were still 28% higher than gas-vehicle prices on average. To me that is bonkers. When EVs were becoming popular, I was expecting to see super cheap, under $10k vehicles. That was the promise: forget about all the IC complicated gears, alternators, transmission, fuel pumps and imagine getting a motor and batteries, what could be simpler!". But no, we ended up with m…

Add a lifetime carbon tax to car purchases and EVs would make a lot more sense. Even without that they will make sense soon. Expecting new tech to start out at the same place on the mass-production supply chain curve as the internal combustion engine is idealistic. It takes time to reach economies of scale but it will happen.

As the article says, the best approach to addressing climate change is not to replace cars with EVs 1:1, but to rethink invest in public infrastructure in high-population areas so that people don't feel like they have to buy a car.

This is a more thoughtful approach to addressing the problem than simply levying a tax on people who can't afford what still appears to be a rich man's toy.