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SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

nytimes.com

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Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#271

Post by throw0101d »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #193
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #170

I was pretty dismayed that Gwynne Shotwell's actions were so blatantly egregious. I'd expect something like that (or probably worse) from Musk, but my view of Shotwell was that she was always "the adult in the room" at SpaceX. So a bit sad to see that she didn't even realize the illegality of her actions (as other comments mentioned, all her actions were clearly put in writing).

Keep in mind she answers to Musk, you can't assume she had the leeway in this instance, especially since he likely got a bee in his bonnet about it and took an uncompromising position.

> Keep in mind she answers to Musk

She also answers to the laws of the society she lives in, which supersede and contractual obligations (or, rather, nullify them).

I've read a book or two that interview/discuss-what the elderly and what regrets they've had about their life: one of the common ones is that they didn't live their life with as much as integrity as they'd like to.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#272

Post by rsynnott »

AlexandrB wrote: post #61

Musk's conception of free speech is completely incoherent. On the one hand he claims to want to fund the legal defense of people fired for their tweets[1], on the other hand we have stuff like this. The simplest explanation is that his idea of speech that should be free is: "stuff I agree with" and anything that falls outside of that box can be freely censored or actioned against. Is there an alternative explanation…

> The simplest explanation is that his idea of speech that should be free is: "stuff I agree with" and anything that falls outside of that box can be freely censored or actioned against. Is there an alternative explanation I'm not seeing?

No; that's about the size of it. This is a surprisingly common stance for people who go on about "free speech" a lot; they often don't mean free speech at all. Freedom from personal criticism would be closer to the mark.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#274

Post by kibwen »

fsckboy wrote: post #191
John23832 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking up against your employer should not threaten your job. That's how you get an echo chamber of horrible decisions made by the people who just so happen to sit at the top. Especially in a company run by someone who claims to "seek truths" like Musk. However, it certainly would not make you popular with the true believers in the room. You would definitely feel the discontent amongst your peers in a conviction le…

> Speaking up against your employer should not threaten your job. if you mean this as advice, ok, but if you mean it as "this needs to be a law", what are you even talking about, authoritarian much? > That's how you get an echo chamber of horrible decisions made by the people who just so happen to sit at the top. firing employees for speaking out might get you, the employer , an echo chamber, but perhaps for your pro…

> authoritarian much?

Protecting people who speak up against authority is the exact opposite of authoritarian.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#275

Post by kibwen »

justrealist wrote: post #167
gitaarik wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But being fired the next day for a open letter that has some reasonable critique is something else. And there's also employer rights btw.

Circulating an open letter point-blank criticizing the CEO is absolutely unprofessional and I'm honestly shocked anyone here thinks they could pull this crap without getting fired.

> I'm honestly shocked anyone here thinks they could pull this crap without getting fired.

I'm shocked at how many closeted authoritarians here on HN crawl out of the woodwork to defend Musk every time that he faces criticism for his dictatorial actions.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#276

Post by davidguetta »

John23832 wrote: post #211
0xedd wrote: post #207

[flagged]

>Oh, please. More bandwagon blind hate. Oh, please. More blind ranting without reading the article. SpaceX fired these employees for asking SpaceX to hold Elon accountable to SpaceX's own rules. It is appropriate to say that that is wrong. There's no "crying to mommy". It's saying "we all agreed to these rules as we came together as a company. Everyone should follow them."

Are you 12 ? In what world do you think publicly ridiculing your boss is gonna do anything good for your career.

Oh well you were 'right'. But now you won't ever be promoted because the boss don't want the risk to be ridiculed again at a higher lever.

If anything Elon made a favor to these weebs so that they can actually go have a career in another compagny

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#277

Post by kibwen »

chii wrote: post #235
TerrifiedMouse wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hardly consider this as “take those disagreements public”. It’s not like they talked to the press. This letter was circulated internally using internal employee communications channels. Ironically, we would never have heard of it if they didn’t fire these employees in retaliation resulting in this lawsuit.

> This letter was circulated internally using internal employee communications channels. if an employee undermined leadership's authority, it is likely that they won't last long. Good leadership means being able to recognize criticism from your employees, but this can't come from grassroots effort within the company - it must come from the top. If the employee disagrees with the direction of the company, and the lead…

> Trying to undermine leadership through collective action via other employees is akin to a threat and an internal coup in a country ruled by a dictator

This comment is so close to realizing why our current corporate structures are bullshit. Keep going, you're almost there.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#278

Post by kibwen »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #139
etchalon wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If something is the norm, then doing it is not abuse The sheer number of historical atrocities this would excuse is almost hilarious.

The world swings and the things which looks like abuse changes. And it's not like people are not dying due to their norms. We need to change their norm from within.

> We need to change their norm from within.

And what happened to the employees in this case who tried to challenge that norm from within?

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#279

Post by tim333 »

wharvle wrote: post #212
comex wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren’t criticizing the product direction. The letter was about Elon’s tweets and sexual harassment.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk... The whole (internal! Until leaked) open letter is near the bottom of that article. Wasn’t paywalled for me. Reading it cleared up the noise in this thread pretty neatly. Sure looks like this has a great shot of counting as protected discussion of work conditions. I now know posts in this thread dismissing the letter as just “politics” or just “criticizin…

>Publicly address and condemn Elon’s harmful Twitter behavior.

>SpaceX must swiftly and explicitly separate itself from Elon’s personal brand.

If you had a company in which you were the majority shareholder and CEO would you put up with the people you hire circulating letters to condemn your behaviour?

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#280

Post by leereeves »

wharvle wrote: post #212
comex wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren’t criticizing the product direction. The letter was about Elon’s tweets and sexual harassment.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk... The whole (internal! Until leaked) open letter is near the bottom of that article. Wasn’t paywalled for me. Reading it cleared up the noise in this thread pretty neatly. Sure looks like this has a great shot of counting as protected discussion of work conditions. I now know posts in this thread dismissing the letter as just “politics” or just “criticizin…

Elon's tweets certainly aren't work conditions.
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